harpdude61
1664 posts
Apr 08, 2013
6:02 AM
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I remember at one of Jason's classes at Hill Country II he talked about in cross harp going to 1st position for the IV chord and 3rd position for the V chord. He added that if you do this you should play the same lick on each chord change, only in the different position.
Example..Playing a boogie lick over bars 1 and 2(I chord)same lick over bars 3 and 4(I chord) then play the same lick in 1st position over bars 5 and 6(IV chord). Same lick again on bars 7 and 8 (I chord). Then the turn-around with the same but shorter licks on bars 9(V chord) and bar 10(IV chord) then resolve on the I chord for bars 11 and 12.
What I'm describing here is pretty much what a bass player would play most all of the tme in a 12 bar blues shuffle or boogie. The bass player truly does change keys (positions) but plays alike or very similar licks or runs thru the changes.
What I'm getting at is this works great for harp but....if I'm going to play non-repetative type licks, I find it better to stay on the notes of the I chord throughout the 12 bar progression. I hope I'm getting this across.
Lets say I'm wailing on a slow blues solo on the high end in 2nd postion....and the band goes to the IV chord..if I jump in and do those infamous blow bend licks on the 8,9 hole resolving to 7 blow, they don't work as well. I played a disimilar lick and it just didn't fit as well.
It seems like a lot of what I listen to the players stay on the root chord notes throughout the 12 bars.
Maybe I'm missing something or not listening correcly.
Can someone give me an example where the player totally switches to 1st position for the IV chord...but plays a totally different lick than what he did on the I chord.
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The Iceman
823 posts
Apr 08, 2013
6:44 AM
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If you treat all the changes as ONE progression, your solos might sound more organic or less cut and paste overall.
Mooncat's suggestion does open the door for new ways to approach ONE progression for those not well versed in how ONE progression as an entity (and it's note choices) works.
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The Iceman
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harpdude61
1666 posts
Apr 08, 2013
7:03 AM
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I'm sorry but you are missing the point of my post. Most of the time I play a 12 bar solo as ONE progression....build-up, tension, and climax.
I'm talking about something different.
Mooncat's is not a new way..it's another way. Actually an advanced technique. You must be able to play fluently in 3 positions as well as having a way to get the missing notes (overblows or however).
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Milsson
58 posts
Apr 08, 2013
7:03 AM
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For me it´s easier to think in cords. In G you have G7 C7 D7 if you know the notes in the blues scale you se that some of the cord tones aren´t there. For example: The V7 cord consists of D Gb A C if you compare that to the blues scale you se that Gb and A aren´t in there (Gb 2-single bend A 3-double bend) and that´s the notes that will make your lick sound more musical rather then playing the blues scale up and down.
In the I chord you have 3draw(B) that´s not in the blues scale and in the IV chord you have 2blow(E).
In your ex, you play the IV cord and resolve back to the 7blow(root) but it dosen´t sound good. If you take what i said in consideration you see that the cord tone that the I and the IV cord has in common is the sixth in the IV cord and the first in the I cord on a C harmonica it would be G 6blow 3blow 2draw. So resolving to the 6 blow makes you cross the "cord boundaries".
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The Iceman
824 posts
Apr 08, 2013
7:09 AM
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harpdude "12 bar solo as ONE progression....build-up, tension, and climax."
I'm not referring to build up, tension and climax, but note choices, how they relate to each other through natural gravitational pull, etc...sort of the ONE progression theory behind the note choices rather than treating it like 3 mini progressions and their respective note choices.
Through this understanding one would make choices that help the solo build up, tension and climax.
Not wishing to get bogged down in words describing....
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The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Apr 08, 2013 7:09 AM
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harpdude61
1667 posts
Apr 08, 2013
7:17 AM
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I understand what you are saying Milsson and it makes sense. You are speaking of over-lapping notes but these are still all in the I chord. I think most of us play this way.
I'm speaking of totally changing to 1st position and all of of it's notes.
Say on the (I) chord you use all the notes avaialable in the blues scale in 2nd position...then when you go to the (IV) chord you use all the notes in the 1st position blues scale..which includes 4,5,6 overblow as well as 8 blow bend 1/2 step,9 blow bend 1/2 step, and 10 blow bend full step.
I have heard Jason do this I think. I hope he chimes in.
What I'm getting at is there must be rules as to when it works to totally change positions on the IV and use ALL of it's notes rather than the common notes of both I and IV chord.
I find it much easier to speak in terms of I,IV,V rather than naming keys and specific notes.
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timeistight
1180 posts
Apr 08, 2013
7:37 AM
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I rarely hear blues scales based on the IV or V chords. Rather, I think most players move between chord scales, like major pentatonic or Mixolydian, on each chord and the blues scale of the key, which they play over all three chords.
One way you can switch blues scales is to play the blues scale of the 6th of a chord. For example, in C you'd play an A blues scale on the I chord (C), the D blues scale on the IV chord (F) and the E blues scale of the V chord (G). Or you can just play the a blues scale over the I chord and the C blues scale over the other two chords.
This works because the A blues scale has all the notes of the C major pentatonic plus the minor third (Eb).
Last Edited by timeistight on Apr 08, 2013 7:38 AM
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The Iceman
825 posts
Apr 08, 2013
7:37 AM
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dude sez " there must be rules as to when it works to totally change positions on the IV and use ALL of it's notes rather than the common notes of both I and IV chord."
If you back up one level of conception (beyond positions) to get a larger view, all notes may be used at any time in any progression. Most work just fine. A few need to have good placement and/or lead in or resolution notes.
However, through force of will, one can make any note work.
Remember, my orientation is more keyboard knowledge, college music theory degrees and listening to Miles Davis a lot.
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The Iceman
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HarpNinja
3290 posts
Apr 08, 2013
7:49 AM
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You do that when that is what you hear yourself playing. I had this same question about 10yrs ago when taking lessons with Clint Hoover. I took playing to harmony too literally.
Play to the harmony sometimes, but don't let it limit what you play. If the progression is such that it isn't diatonic, THEN it becomes more of a concern. With a blues progression, though, I'd just approach the chord changes as places where you can expand the vocabulary you use.
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Mantra Customized Harmonicas
My Website
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Martin
298 posts
Apr 08, 2013
7:57 AM
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Playing 1 pos licks on the IV chord that repeats the 2 pos licks on the I chord, could entail that you often land on or emphasize the root note, say C if you´re playing in G. For some reason that always sounds wimpy.
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harpdude61
1668 posts
Apr 08, 2013
8:31 AM
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Y'all are making this harder than it seems and missing my point. I know you can use any note in any position with correct placement. I'm speaking of playing the same licks on the (I) and (IV) using different positions.
Say a bass player does the common run up and down of C E G A Bb A G E C..these are 1/4 notes that fill bar 1 and 2.. then again on bars 3 and 4...then he goes to the (IV) chord for bar 5 and 6 and plays ..F A C D Eb D C A F,,He is in a sense changing positions on the (IV) chord....He uses notes that are NOT in the C chord when he gets to bar 5 but they work because he is playing exactly the same lick. I know this is rhythm but it makes for a great harp solo with a little flair.
I know Jason talked of this and I've heard him do it. I just can't find examples so you guys can hear and learn something really cool.
I'm getting at playing a lick twice while you are on the (I) chord using the notes of the 2nd position blues scale...preferably a more complex lick than I just described...then play the EXACT same lick in 1st position on the (IV) chord. I'm not talking about 6ths or overlapping notes or Miles Davis.
Last Edited by harpdude61 on Apr 08, 2013 8:34 AM
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timeistight
1181 posts
Apr 08, 2013
8:45 AM
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"I'm not talking about 6ths or overlapping notes"
Yes you are :) Your sample riffs feature them.
You're talking about playing a riff on the I and then the same riff up a fourth on the IV, right? Pretty common.
Last Edited by timeistight on Apr 08, 2013 8:52 AM
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harpdude61
1669 posts
Apr 08, 2013
8:51 AM
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Just looking for more mind-expanding examples. Sure those notes overlap time but not all the notes do. That's my point.
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smwoerner
170 posts
Apr 08, 2013
8:54 AM
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If you can play a boogie or a shuffle patter you are already doing this to some extent.
You basically play the Root, 3rd, 5th, and b7th over each chord. Typical boogie pattern in 2nd position is:
d2, d3, d4, d5 (x4) I chord (second position arpeggio)
b1, b2, b3, d3’ (x2) IV chord (first position arpeggio)
d2, d3, d4, d5 (x2) I chord (second position arpeggio)
d1, d2’’, d3’’', b4 (x1) V chord (third position arpeggio)
b1, b2, b3, d3’ (x1) IV chord (first position arpeggio)
d2, d3, d4, d5 (x2) I chord (second position arpeggio)
Knowing how to play the same pattern over chord changes is great way of accompanying another player. This is great for improve duo jamming. Come up with a pattern and play the changes. Some examples could be root, third fifth, third or root, fifth, third, fifth. This is actually something most of do without realizing it.
Last Edited by smwoerner on Apr 08, 2013 10:07 PM
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harpdude61
1670 posts
Apr 08, 2013
9:10 AM
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I agree smwoerner. It is fantastic for accompanying another player. It is also great for solos of a different kind. I have a CD of Mooncat's where he does what I am describing on "I'm Just a Playboy"..cool stacatto stuff .... but his versions I find on youtube are a little different.
Regardless..he did state in his class that if you want to expand your playing and change positions when changing chords that playing the same licks is a great way to go.
I was trying to bring something new the the table but I guess I'm not very good at explaining.
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GamblersHand
426 posts
Apr 08, 2013
9:38 AM
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding this topic, but I think this is connected to whether you play blues modally or scalar, or more likely, somewhere in between.
To my ears, playing to delta blues or delta-ish Chicago blues it sounds best if I stick quite closely to the blues scale across the three chords. Not always but mostly.
There are still subtleties though - like playing the blue third on the I chord, hitting the 3 half-step bend precisely on the IV, playing the 2 draw double bend a little sharp on the V.
If I'm playing more slightly more jazzy material, e.g. West Coast or Texan shuffles, soul-blues or rumbas then arpegiating the chords and changing scale with chord changes sounds more appropriate. You could concieve this as playing three different positions across the chords.
It's all a spectrum though, and I don't see any hard and fast rules except what your ears and taste dictate
btw, I see this as being related to the question about playing the 4 draw in first position / 6 draw in 2nd position, on the V chord. It's slightly more modal rather than scalar to play this, but nearly always sounds good.
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Moon Cat
209 posts
Apr 08, 2013
10:28 AM
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Hey guys: I'll try and take a crack at harpdudes question. First I just want to say how cool it is to see us all talking about playing music as it relates to melody and harmony. Everyone here has said great things.
As it relates to harpdudes question, sometimes/often it is NOT of the best artistic choices to play exactly the same thing on the I, V and V. Either way it is an artistic decision. I have been very guilty in my career of trying things just because I can or I know they work theoretically. Your out line of using the top octave (like 1st position) in cross harp on the IV is a great example. Although it works fine technically for some reason it does not always sound so great. I have experienced this myself, maybe it's the a combination of articulating a different chord with a radically different tambre? I don't know. What I do know is that even though at hillcountry I might have said to play EXACTLY the same figure on each chord you certainly don't need to do this or maybe even should not. It's important to know HOW, and maybe this is why I misconstrued the importance of repitition there. However trying it makes you aware of where the b3 of the IV is... where the 2 of the V is etc...good stuff! Also how these notes relate to the damn I chord! Meow! I think I have overdone this many times though because it helped me improvise without ever mimicking my heroes, so it was a lot of fun...Then,later, I found more ways to erase/disguise the seams of the changes picking just a few key notes etc... Noone can convince me otherwise (please don't try unless in person) that Little Walter was not VERY aware of this discussion. Almost every time the band would change to the V chord Little Walter would play one or all of these combos: 4 draw (8 of the root) 4 Blow (b7 of the root), 3 draw whole step bend ( V of the Root), 3 triple bend (bV of the root), 2 draw (IV), 2 double bend (b3rd of the root) and on down to lower octaves....The problem with NOT thinking L.W. was doing this is you DONT here him choosing these notes especially 3 triple bend elsewhere....but every time, almost no matter what band he was with, you hear him playing these notes or definitive 3rd position licks...I really dont believe that Little Walter was just some mystical, magical, soulful, damaged, gifted old black man from the hood who knew what was up, I think all that shit is true, But he was also a smart, intellectual, savvy, and apparently communicative individual of basic theory and harmony as it relates to the chords we get to hear him play over. Try playing the 3 triple bend or holding the 3 double bend for very long on any other chord? Tough.
Any way I like choosing nice pieces of chords now,( ex. b3rd of IV) or more notes on each change (not all the time) and using them in a way harpdude that sound likes I'm still playing in cross. I still do sometimes play scale and scale patterns of each chord but I'd like to think I do it in a more cloaked fashion now (Maybe thats why it was hard to find). On "Playboy" I was Certainly doing this and your ear rocks for hearing it. This IS something other lead musicians (Guitar,Trumpet,Sax) all do all the time in all kinds of fun ways. I know Adam Gussow found great ways of working the 4 Over Blow into blues by using it on the IV chord as a b3rd!!! I stole that shit at a young age! Other wise the 4 overblow is only good on Minor tunes,gypsy stuff,jazz pieces, and arabic etc...But the great A.G. back in 96 was rocking that sucker like a stair on the way to some kind of Louis Armstrong heaven. Thats pretty much where I'm at with this stuff. You can go crazy and have all the chops of a bass player (and thus relative understanding) or you can grab a key note form that modulated lick, or you can ignore the whole damn ferret...All of these can be done just fine....It's real hard to describe in print ways of making this approach sound seamless but there everywhere in music...Sometimes when Howlin Wolf just blows the 2 draw through all 12 I'm more than happy. That being said opening up to these ideas helps!
Last Edited by Moon Cat on Apr 08, 2013 10:38 AM
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Moon Cat
210 posts
Apr 08, 2013
10:50 AM
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Also timesights examples were a whole different ferret which have cool results! Harpdude call me or email me your # at gmail.com lets hash it out.
J
jasonricci1@gmail.com
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harpdude61
1671 posts
Apr 08, 2013
3:16 PM
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Thanks Moon Cat. I'm happy if others learned something from this thread. I know I did. Now I want to go listen to my LW collection!
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Goldbrick
142 posts
Apr 08, 2013
3:27 PM
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Hey Mooncat -great info you have shared- very thoughtful and detailed -- Thanks
Don't think Little Walter lived long enuff to be a gifted old dude ( gone at 37)
You might be an older dude than he ever got to be.
But I know where you were coming from
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harpburn
39 posts
Apr 08, 2013
5:26 PM
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This all seems interesting - does anyone have a link to the sort of "Boogie Lick" decribed which is transferable to different positions - for practice's sake?
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Nisei
33 posts
Apr 08, 2013
5:37 PM
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Man, it's hard to phrase a question *just* right, so everyone gets what you're after, isn't it? This thread is the was the perfect follow up to my 'why is this note right' question. Thanks for put it out here.
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Frank
2177 posts
Apr 08, 2013
7:23 PM
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David Barret example, showing position substitution around one central pitch...Using 3 different harps :)
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Littoral
825 posts
Apr 09, 2013
4:42 PM
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A relevant example to consider.
Norton Buffalo on Runaway uses 4 harps over his solo. The chords are Cm Bflat Aflat G and he does each change in 2nd (to my ears). Serious harp gymnastics.
Question, Which "1" harp would best accommodate the positions for these chords?
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The Iceman
827 posts
Apr 09, 2013
4:42 PM
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CWinter...
don't think so. I've heard a few different studio takes of "Juke" and they all sound completely different.
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The Iceman
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Gnarly
546 posts
Apr 09, 2013
4:48 PM
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@Littoral Chromatic in C--or a Power Chromatic (diatonic) in Bb (Eb6 blow, F6 draw).
Starting a new thread.
Last Edited by Gnarly on Apr 09, 2013 5:04 PM
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harpdude61
1673 posts
Apr 09, 2013
7:52 PM
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Last Edited by harpdude61 on Apr 10, 2013 6:03 AM
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Gnarly
548 posts
Apr 09, 2013
7:57 PM
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Hi everyone!
I replied to the message above, and it is blank now.
So am I.
Be nice to people if you can.
Last Edited by Gnarly on Apr 10, 2013 8:39 AM
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dougharps
380 posts
Apr 09, 2013
11:31 PM
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You can solo over those "Runaway" changes acceptably with an F harp, but it will not be the same solo. I cheated and did this some years back due to not having the time to practice before the gig to learn to coordinate 4 harps copying his solo fast enough for successful live performance. I resorted to using one harp, with a solo that most audience members didn't even notice as different. I sure did.
Edit: This is assuming that the changes above were done in the same key as the one the singer I played with used. I know an F harp covered the changes in the key she sang in... I will check tomorrow, when I can make some noise.
I think Gnarly may have started a thread on this, but I haven't checked it out yet. I can't find my earphones.
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Apr 09, 2013 11:42 PM
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Frank
2184 posts
Apr 10, 2013
4:25 AM
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Here is another great example by David Barrett, this time using "Octave Substitution" in a solo...One harp used in this solo - playing a lick then a facsimile of that lick played in a different octave of the harmonica.
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harpdude61
1674 posts
Apr 10, 2013
5:14 AM
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Gnarly started a new thread
Last Edited by harpdude61 on Apr 10, 2013 6:05 AM
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