CarlA
267 posts
Feb 22, 2013
4:56 PM
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If you could excel in one but be mediocre in another, which would you choose?? Monster tone that makes players like Garry Smith, et al seem shrill and thin, or technique that makes the harmonica masters seem like neophytes??
-Carl
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Rick Davis
1339 posts
Feb 22, 2013
5:02 PM
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tone.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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Willspear
298 posts
Feb 22, 2013
5:57 PM
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Well tone is technique
Neither exist in a vacuum
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SuperBee
955 posts
Feb 22, 2013
6:15 PM
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Will's right, but I know what you mean. The quality of sound rather than dexterity (which is probably the wrong word. I think dexterity refers to using hands. "Agility" may be more like it). I am impressed by speed and other technique for sure, but its the quality of sound and the 'musicality' that brings me back to listen.
Yeah I dunno Carl, technique without good tone is pretty hard to listen to for me. But good tone without the technique to express any ideas is not interesting for long.
When you said tone, or when I think what tone means, the first thing I think of is Steve Guyger's 'Snake Oil'. Not saying its the greatest, just that's the first thing comes to mind...
I'd love to get that sound come out of me
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timeistight
1136 posts
Feb 22, 2013
6:22 PM
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I want whichever one Walter Horton had.
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Playing music... it's a privilege.
Kim Wilson
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Jehosaphat
446 posts
Feb 22, 2013
9:21 PM
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Great question...
I'm on the side of Tone 100%
And i think both are as 'difficult' as another.
But yeah,up on a stage playing to a Saturday Night audience..Tone.
Playing to an audience of Harp fanatics?Technique.
Last Edited by Jehosaphat on Feb 22, 2013 9:34 PM
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John95683
51 posts
Feb 22, 2013
9:36 PM
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With good tone, simple techniques sound good. With poor tone, even good technique sounds poor. JMHO
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wolfkristiansen
169 posts
Feb 22, 2013
11:46 PM
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CarlA-- Tone v. technique-- you have to have both. You gave me and everyone else an impossible choice. It can't be all of one and none of the other.
But... if push came to shove... if I had to choose between passable technique and beautiful tone... I'd chose beautiful tone. If I had to choose between passable technique and passable tone, I'd choose passable tone. If I had to choose between incredible technique and passable tone, I'd choose passable tone.
Tone trumps technique, in the end, but you gotta have both.
SuperBee-- I'm tickled someone singled out Steve Guyger's "Snake Oil" for praise when talking about tone. I, too, love that song for its tone, also for its moody feel. Peter Green's guitar evokes the same ethereal mood in "The Supernatural" on John Mayall's second album.
Here's "Snake Oil", for those who haven't heard its beautiful tone:
Cheers,
wolf kristiansen
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SuperBee
956 posts
Feb 23, 2013
12:09 AM
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Cheers Wolf!
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Jehosaphat
447 posts
Feb 23, 2013
12:11 AM
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Wow that Steve Guyger track is new to me...
Now that is a lot more Tone than technique but maybe technique also is more than just playing the harmonica..having the ability to work all the other facets of harp playing amplified..like Steve has done,are very much part of Tone.
Duck:hornets nest seen coming!
Maybe the OP was only talking about acoustic harp:^)
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Kingley
2335 posts
Feb 23, 2013
2:19 AM
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"Now that is a lot more Tone than technique"
I'd disagree with that. If you listen to that track there is some complex bending skills going on there. Just try playing it and you'll soon see that it's much, much harder to do than it seems. Of course the tone is superb on it, but as with all things that appear simple the devil is in the detail. Too many people think of a fast flurry of notes as being "technique". Playing a seemingly simple line with emotion, using space to let the notes ring and grow out and getting good tone requires far more technique though than playing fast does.
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CarlA
268 posts
Feb 23, 2013
4:54 AM
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Thanks for the replies, it's interesting to hear them.
My original post was a bit vague, and I know that tone is related to technique.
I will elaborate on my OT, by stating that technique= full mastery of every position, including OB,OD, etc. this would also include phrasing, both slow/fast playing, that would be unmatched. Technique would include superb mastery of every facet of harp playing, less tone. I am not saying you would have bad tone, it would just be considerably worse in relation to technique.
Tone= We are talking "voice of an angel" stuff here, when you play, your tone captivates. Choosing this option wouldn't mean you technique was bad, but relatively speaking to tone it would be "mediocre".
Of course this is a purely hypothetical question, a sort of a "genie granting you a choice" kind of thing. I am just interested to see what the general harmonica community holds in higher regards. So far TONE seems to be the winner
-Carl
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Kingley
2336 posts
Feb 23, 2013
5:01 AM
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Tone.
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Littoral
790 posts
Feb 23, 2013
5:28 AM
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Developing tone technique requires technical ability and then it can access the person.
Then it can be music.
Last Edited by Littoral on Feb 23, 2013 5:34 AM
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TheoBurke
316 posts
Feb 23, 2013
6:28 AM
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Tone is technique, in my book. What's important for me isn't the amount of technique a player has, but rather the quality of what he does with it. Billy Gibbons, guitarist for ZZ Top, doesn't have a great deal of harmonica technique on their song "Waiting for the Bus", but his tone is perfect, blasting, crisp, distorted just right. The few notes he plays are punchy to say the least, precisely timed. The same thing can be said of Taj Mahall's "Leavin' Trunk" and 'She Took the Katy"--neither are complicated, but Mahal's playing is sublime. In the solos in either song, his phrases are brief, terse, emotionally gratifying. This is a musician who, though not a virtuoso by the arbitrary standards of current thinking, still had the genius to compose memorable statements. Tone or technique isn't a real choice one needs to make, in most cases.
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Ted Burke
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-VPUDjK-ibQ&feature=relmfu
http://ted-burke.com
tburke4@san.rr.co,
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Rick Davis
1340 posts
Feb 23, 2013
6:40 AM
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CarlA does not ask us to make an absolute choice between the two; he asks if we could excel at one and be mediocre at the other, which would you prefer?
I am mediocre at both, but it is the tone of one pure note that drives me to practice and play. It is the sound of the harp. I admire players with dazzling technique like John Popper, but I will never get there and I'm not sure I really want to.
I've been fascinated with amped blues harp tone since I first started... the combination of player and gear. If I had to make the choice (and I have) I'd concentrate on tone.
(I just thought of something: I once auditioned a guitarist for my band several years ago who told me he was "a tone guy." What that turned out to mean was that he was pretty bad at ensemble playing. We certainly need loads of technique to play in bands, but CarlA's question is still a good one.)
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Last Edited by Rick Davis on Feb 23, 2013 6:46 AM
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Goldbrick
79 posts
Feb 23, 2013
7:47 AM
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Tone - Makes the music listenable and hypnotic
By your definition of technique being complete mastery-unless you are a studio musician playing widely varying styles, its pretty extraneous. Without tone , technique is a party trick.
I do a lot of busking and people might stop a second for technique but they stay for tone and groove.
I can listen to John Lee Hooker all night , I can listen to Steve Vai for a minute
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Willspear
299 posts
Feb 23, 2013
8:12 AM
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If I could keep my current tone of which I am pleased with I'd kill to play with half of Howard levy's technical prowess
If anyone says Howard's playing doesn't have amazing tonal mastery while being the most technically impressive I don't know what to say. Whether someone likes the genres of music he plays is immaterial.
His playing would suck if it wasn't toneful as it stands I have never been floored by a performance like I was by a show of him and joe craven.
You can't develop that level of technique without absolute mastery of breathing and resonance.
Also tone is relevant to the music played. Having what western music would ascribe to tonality has little to do with a 24 tone microtonal scale based cultures music for instance.
A fat amplified blues tone is not always the desired tone despite what people seem to think.
Last Edited by Willspear on Feb 23, 2013 8:14 AM
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Littoral
791 posts
Feb 23, 2013
8:30 AM
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Maybe a more direct version of the question.
Would you rather be able to play like BW or Moon Cat?
...and now that I asked it that way I wonder if there is any point to the original question.
Maybe. It suggests what is valued and why.
BW.
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Thievin' Heathen
158 posts
Feb 23, 2013
8:50 AM
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I can only assume you meant to ask, "if you woke up one morning and harmonica fairies had come in the night and bestowed upon you either the gift of tone or the gift of technique, which would you want?"
I think that is about the only way we could be presented with such a choice.
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Goldbrick
80 posts
Feb 23, 2013
8:55 AM
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I know that when I play for myself I am much more interested in tone that goes for all 3 instruments I attempt to play ( drums,harmonica and guitar)
Obviously as musicians we all strive for technique sufficient to get our message across-beyond that its personal goals and obsessions
Look how much is written on this forum about mics, amps ,speakers etc. Tone has a universal appeal
A lot less of us ( and I mean trad blues players ) care about overblows or speed
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MIKE C.
59 posts
Feb 23, 2013
10:18 AM
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Tone.
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CarlA
269 posts
Feb 23, 2013
10:48 AM
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The OT isn't meant to compare any individual player, nor is it meant to single any one player out!
My question was posted because TONE appears to virtually all harmonica players to be the single most crucial element in ones SOUND. Note I didn't mention playing, as this would be categorized under the "technique" banner.
I reiterate, when the OT states "TONE", it implies strictly just the sound, not the structure of ones playing(ie:technique).
!!Remember, in this hypothetical question!!
Tone= the richness/fullness of the SOUND of a note/notes(EITHER accoustically/amplified)
Technique= the way in which you COMMUNICATE the musical ideas!
In other words, would you rather SOUND(ie:tone) stellar but not have much to say in your musical ideas(ie: lack of technique),
or
would you rather sound mediocre(ie:lack of tone) but have a musical vocabulary and way to express it(ie: stellar technique) that makes you a musical savant!
(NB). Remember to think about this hypothetical question in terms of
your target AUDIENCE! (not your harmonica peers).
This may be more crucial/beneficial than you may think.
I'll give you my answer and interpretation FWIW later on.
Thanks again for everyone's input!
-Carl
Last Edited by CarlA on Feb 23, 2013 10:53 AM
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Littoral
792 posts
Feb 23, 2013
11:33 AM
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"!!Remember, in this hypothetical question!!
Tone= the richness/fullness of the SOUND of a note/notes(EITHER accoustically/amplified)
Technique= the way in which you COMMUNICATE the musical ideas!"
I don't recall any of that in the OT -or any of the other boundaries of proper thought now bestowed as the OT.
I did wonder (above) if there was any point to the original question. Then I reconsidered and imagined it might suggest what is valued and why.
Oops. Carry on.
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CarlA
270 posts
Feb 23, 2013
11:48 AM
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@littoral
My recent description EXPOUNDS on the OT. I was just trying to clarify it for others ;)
-Carl
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timeistight
1137 posts
Feb 23, 2013
1:26 PM
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Which of the following would you call tone and which would be technique?
slaps
plulls
flutters
shakes
circular breathing
"dirty" notes
corner switching
tremolo
vibrato
trills
bends: speed
bends: intonation
overbends: speed
overbends: intonation
harmonic knowledge
scale knowledge
diaphragmatic breathing
use of space
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Playing music... it's a privilege.
Kim Wilson
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CarlA
272 posts
Feb 23, 2013
2:07 PM
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@timesistight
"Technique"!!!!!
Read my previous posts in this thread!
Last Edited by CarlA on Feb 23, 2013 2:08 PM
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timeistight
1138 posts
Feb 23, 2013
2:49 PM
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I'll pick technique then, because if I've mastered all those techniques I'll have great tone, too!
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Playing music... it's a privilege.
Kim Wilson
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CarlA
273 posts
Feb 23, 2013
3:02 PM
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@timeistight
Lol! You are trying to get the best of both worlds it seems. The OT and subsequent posts make it pretty clear. Read Rick Davis post (#16) in this thread.
-Carl
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