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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > On the Rack in 5th position
On the Rack in 5th position
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Greyowlphotoart
1121 posts
Feb 19, 2013
8:25 AM
Sounds like an unpleasant session in the Tower of London :)

I am slowly getting used to the harmonica rack but I still feel like I’m chasing the harp, unless I clamp it so close to my face I can barely turn my head. Have tried the Madcat Ruth method of attaching it to a Mic stand Boom and that feels a bit more comfortable but still weird.

As a self-confessed 2nd position merchant I have to say I stumbled across 5th position quite by chance (please don’t tell me I’m wrong and that I am still in 2nd - I’m still rusty at theory C#minor or Dbminor on guitar – Harp in A) and it lays out pretty well, only two OB’s on 5 at the start and half step draw bends on 2 & whole step bends on 3.

It’s a song by an Australian guy, Gotye and was covered by Walk of the Earth (4 guys and a gal sharing one guitar!!)

I’m pretty much following the melody of the song as written and it was fun to play.



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Grey Owl YouTube
Grey Owl Abstract Photos

Last Edited by Greyowlphotoart on Feb 24, 2013 11:53 PM
mr_so&so
645 posts
Feb 19, 2013
10:16 AM
Hey Grey Owl. Very nicely done. Soulful playing there, and sounded great with the guitar. As far as position goes, I'm going to guess that you are in 4th, not fifth. An A harp in 4th puts you in Db. I can't tell what your resolution note (root note) is from listening, but 4th would make it 3", 6, 10, and your minor third would be 1+, 4+, 7+, 10+. Does that sound right?
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mr_so&so
harpdude61
1620 posts
Feb 19, 2013
10:40 AM
5th position for sure! Neat stuff! 2,5, and 8 blow is your root note. 5th position harp key is always two full steps down from the band or guitar key.

Db
C....1/2
B....1
Bb...1 1/2
A....2 full steps down
mr_so&so
646 posts
Feb 19, 2013
11:10 AM
I can't count. I stand corrected by the Dude. Counting up from A on the circle of fifths indeed gives you Db as 5th position. I was entranced by your playing, I guess, Grey Owl.
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mr_so&so

Last Edited by mr_so&so on Feb 19, 2013 11:13 AM
Greyowlphotoart
1122 posts
Feb 19, 2013
11:29 AM
Thank you guys.

and :) to mr_so&so for your reply to Harpdude who I owe thanks to for rescuing me from making a hash of theory response! You un-nerved me a bit there mr_so&so!!

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Grey Owl YouTube
Grey Owl Abstract Photos

Last Edited by Greyowlphotoart on Feb 19, 2013 11:30 AM
harpdude61
1621 posts
Feb 19, 2013
12:49 PM
You guys crack me up. Try some 5th position high end slow blues like Musselwhite does playing along with a slow backing or tune. Go between 8 and 9 blow releasing slight bends (just a nuance) into the unbent blow notes (root and flat 3rd). Then if you can use the 10 draw (major4th) to lead into some wailing between the 10 blow bend full step (flat 5) and the 10 blow bend 1/2 step (major 5), you are on to some nasty high end minor blues in 5th position.
harp-er
354 posts
Feb 19, 2013
9:09 PM
Sweet sound. Sweet song. The combination of harp and guitar, and your playing, make it work beautifully.
jodanchudan
773 posts
Feb 20, 2013
3:26 AM
Soulful stuff. I play this with the guys I jam with, but more in a backing role. It's great to hear the harp take the melody here. By the way, I know what you mean about using a rack - I get exactly the same feeling of chasing the harp unless it's clamped in like some dental apparatus.
Komuso
145 posts
Feb 20, 2013
4:43 AM
If you are chasing it on the rack get a better rack

Nice work!
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
Frank
2015 posts
Feb 20, 2013
8:30 AM
You captured the essence of that tune quite nicely - your sabbatical has paid off :)
Greyowlphotoart
1123 posts
Feb 20, 2013
8:46 AM
Thanks a lot guys!

Haha Frank, I swing between fanatical and sabbatical.

That sounds neat Harpdude, I'll give that a try.

@ Jodan ‘I get exactly the same feeling of chasing the harp unless it's clamped in like some dental apparatus.’

Haha…..exactly!! Cool that you play this song with the guys. I think a harp fill would sound really good on this song. The problem with playing the melody line with so many lyrics is that in places the result can sound too staccato.

@ Komuso Yeah I was thinking of buying the Hohner flexrack which I think has several adjustments options, but I’m still cautious because I think I’m still after the same contact with my mouth as hand held and this involves placing the harp uncomfortably close to my mouth. I haven’t played with the rack very much so maybe it’s just a matter of relaxing a bit and getting used to leaning slightly forward to play the harp.

For anyone who is interested, I have tabbed out the guitar and harp part which you can find HERE

If you haven’t heard it here is the original song by ‘GOTYE’:-




And a unique and clever cover by ‘Walk of the Earth’



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Grey Owl YouTube
Grey Owl Abstract Photos

Last Edited by Greyowlphotoart on Feb 20, 2013 8:50 AM
Shaganappi
8 posts
Feb 20, 2013
6:47 PM
That "on the rack" feeling seems to be universal. I gave up trying years ago. But thanks for posting per inspiration for myself - I will give it another go and see if my split personality can emerge. Guess like anything, start simple and see if I can control the wire monster while messing with the guitar stuff.

Btw, your YouTube post on Eleanor Rigby just opened up a big door for my playing just a couple of days ago. Have spent a fair time at it and now getting to feel fairly comfortable in some of the 5th position. It really was not that bad although I do not have the smoother control of bends that you so effectively use. Now I wonder why I have not tried this before. Thanks.

While learning your older post, I tabbed some of E.Rigby including the RHYTHM using Beat Tab. I posted it on my Web Page per "Examples" in the "Practical" section. I used your holes basically but altered the rhythm to agree more closely with the original piece. Although, I kinda like your rendition better in some respects. Good job.
Greyowlphotoart
1125 posts
Feb 21, 2013
2:33 AM
Thanks. I try the rack every few years and then let it be. This time I've made a bit more progress if not yet feeling really at ease with it on a harp comfort level. Perhaps it's time to just sit down and play favourite riffs on racked harmonica without guitar over and over.

Playing both instruments at the same time is a separate challenge and I am getting more used to that but if the rythym of the guitar changes then I'm in trouble on the harp. I guess it's just a matter of endless practice until it becomes more natural.

Eleanor Rigby surprised me as I thought it was going to be quite easy but when I put on the backing track I was surprised at the speed of the song as I had it in mind that it was a lot slower. Also it was quite a challenge rythym wise. Didn't realise I was playing in 5th on this one! must be becoming instinctive as I note the song is in E minor (and the the one I play above is in C#minor.) Apparently 5th lays out well in minor keys.

Will check out your website. Good luck with the rack!
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Grey Owl YouTube
Grey Owl Abstract Photos
mr_so&so
649 posts
Feb 21, 2013
9:27 AM
Yup, 5th is a good minor position. Former MBHer hvyj used to talk about it a lot in that sense. Good for the natural minor scale (as is 4th position). The only tricky bit is the 5ob for the major second in the middle octave, that you mentioned in your first post.
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mr_so&so
oldwailer
1949 posts
Feb 21, 2013
10:06 AM
Very nice, Greyowl--I have yet to venture into 5th or even 4th--I'm pretty much stuck with 1st, 2nd, 3d, and lately, a little 12th.

Rack playing is its own skillset--just like bending and OB. Getting a good rack was one of the best things I ever did to get better at it--but it still just amounts to playing with it a lot.

Terry "Harmonica" Bean told me that you should never even practice guitar without at least wearing the rack--even if you don't have a harp part for what you are practicing.

It's the same thing as the old adage with harp: "keep it in your mouth--with the rack--keep it around your neck. Some players get great sounds with even the crappiest racks--its just a matter of working with it.

I use a Sennenhouser (can't spell it) rack that is very good--but expensive. I have been interested in the magnetic one offered by Farmer's Foot Drums at

http://www.footdrums.com/products/harp-holders/harp-holders2012-10-28-21-46-14/farmer-archtop-harp-holder-shop

I have one of those magnetic holders that fits on a Shure 58--and the magnetic idea seems to work great.

It's just like with harps--there will always be a few more to buy and try. . .

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Oldwailer's Web Site

"Too Pretty for the Blues."
Greyowlphotoart
1128 posts
Feb 21, 2013
11:09 AM
@ Mr So&So - Gotta try 4th now!!

Thanks OldWailer, good to get some tips from an experienced rack player.

Yes, I think the repetition thing is beginning to pay dividends and I’m going to keep practicing on my cheapo wire rack which I’ve bent and twisted so many times it looks some sort of metal art exhibit.

Only when I’ve overcome the weirdness of rack playing and find that I want to persevere will I invest in something more expensive. I remember you recommending this expensive rack which I think you got from Harponline (who unfortunately went bust) and it does look very good.

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Grey Owl YouTube
Grey Owl Abstract Photos
dmitrysbor
36 posts
Feb 22, 2013
5:47 AM
I feel that you fail refren, which is most soulful and emotional part of the song. A lot of wrong notes too. Besides, I don't see any good reason to play holder on record. You can can do it separately: play guitar chords and later apply harp solo. I'm sure that you harmonica solo will benefit from it.

Last Edited by dmitrysbor on Feb 22, 2013 5:50 AM
AW
143 posts
Feb 22, 2013
7:38 AM
This is great! I was just thinking about trying to do an all harmonica version of this song with a new effects pedal I got. Not I'm not sure if I feel inspired or intimidated.

I always enjoy your music, thanks.
Greyowlphotoart
1129 posts
Feb 22, 2013
8:04 AM
Thanks for the feedback guys.

@AW Go for it man!!!
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Grey Owl YouTube
Grey Owl Abstract Photos

Last Edited by Greyowlphotoart on Feb 22, 2013 9:57 AM
Shaganappi
9 posts
Feb 22, 2013
8:05 AM
Eleanor Rigby has always been a favorite of mine so was very pleased per your rendition. I had never tabbed it out before but rhythm-wise, as you said, it was interesting. But funny, when put on paper, it does not seem that unusual. I often first like to break it down into "Beat Lyrics" right under the actual "Beat Tab" which I have actually shown on my web page. We often can determine the beat more accurately when we deal with the lyrics, particularly on melody pieces as you might have noticed on your piece in "Further Examples".
https://sites.google.com/site/btabnotation/

I really have to organize my Examples and tab suggestions on my web pages better but it was dragging on, etc. and I wanted to get it published. Now if only I can figure how to incorporate Google Analytics's script into the right place into the html. I am such an idiot when it comes to some of this stuff. Then maybe I can get back to content and make it more presentable and searchable with maybe some sounds and pictures. It is a hobby so I tend to bristle at the idea of paying someone to do my web stuff, particularly when it will land in my lap as an administrator eventually. At least I got it to the stage of a limited publish. Maybe I will open it up to the Google search engine in a couple of weeks when I get a few more bugs out after some feedback from the harp community.

I agree that better harp playing is more likely with no rack but there are times that a rack is a cool item per performance. Look at Deak Harp and Jimi Lee. Unreal abilities. And to be able to improvise guitar to harp on the fly is not possible if a set track is laid down first. But good for the more set cover tunes though. Point taken. Keep practicing until it comes natural. It has a place for sure. You are doing a great job already. Damn, those bends seem so natural when you do them. I struggle for that fluidity when I do those deep ones on 2 and 3.
Greyowlphotoart
1130 posts
Feb 22, 2013
9:19 AM
@Shagnanappi. That's a pretty cool website and you've put a lot of work into it. The beat tab looks interesting and I will have to give it more time to absorb it. I've got familiar with writing one tabbing system and new ones throw me a bit at first especially with the addition of 'Beat'.

Might be worth posting it on MBH under a new topic and asking for friendly, constructive feedback when you have completed your adjustments.

Yes I am amazed by those players, it looks so effortless and you sense that there rack harp playing would sound pretty well the same if they were holding the harps!

I recorded 'Somebody that I used to know' on Harp and guitar to provide some performance pressure because I am doing a Charity Gig soon. I can't rely on getting it right at the moment. The video is my best attempt yet after multiple tries so I
have got work left to do to get it to acceptible performance level consistently.

In future I only intend to use the rack occasionally and in the context of singing and playing guitar and adding a solo on the harp or a bit of fill and not playing out the whole melody line. I'm on the foothills of this rack playing stuff at the moment and am keen to improve.

I've played so much 2nd position over the years on the 1st octave (including lots of melodies)that these bends on 2 & 3 have become more comfortable for me.

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Grey Owl YouTube
Grey Owl Abstract Photos

Last Edited by Greyowlphotoart on Feb 22, 2013 10:15 AM
Shaganappi
13 posts
Feb 24, 2013
8:15 PM
I think an explanation of how Beat Tab works is probably 10 times HARDER to EXPLAIN, than just actually DOING IT. So just with an example to assist:

TAP a foot and try the first two bars of Row, Row, Row your Boat ( /2 2 [22]2 /22[22]2 - / ) using only a 2 hole draw for ALL notes so JUST the RHYTHM comes out. Or use short words like /R R [RY]B /GL[DT]S - / while singing it. After noticing the spaces and [ ]'s carefully, (count all the NUMBERS and SPACES and the DASH's in each bar = 8 in each if you notice), I will bet most anyone can then figure out the rudiments of the system already (INCLUDING where the down beats are) without ANY instruction if you "guessed" that there were FOUR foot taps per each bar. Then learn a bit more detail about the system and move to some more complex rhythms and soon you are a Tab Master.

I have quickly put in what I THINK (not likely too accurate) I heard on YOUR piece for the first 12 bars:

{/4 4 6 6 /77[87]6 - /6 6 5 - /65*[54]4 - }}/
/33[3''3'']3''3''4 /-3''2 [2'2']2+ /- - x.x./- - - - /
Above s/h underlining under some (not supported here)
If +'s for blows used instead of underlining, then:

{/4 4 6 6 /77+[87]6 - /6+ 6+ 5+* - /65+[5+4]4 - }}/
/33[3''3'']3''3''4 /-3''2 [2'2']2+ /- - x.x./- - - - /

But I find the +'s detract a lot from the recognition of spaces (which are important here) so I dislike using them. Also mono-spacing not good for showing 3'', etc. Damn, I wish underlining & the normal fonts were available on forums.
Greyowlphotoart
1135 posts
Feb 25, 2013
7:08 AM
@Shaganappi

Thanks for the explanation of the system, broken down in simple terms. I am not normally good at picking this stuff up because I learn and play by ear. I have though, used a simple tab to express what I'm doing on some of the songs I post on Youtube.

I'm not very good at sight reading when I look at a music score, but I guess it's just a matter (as with any notation system) of spending more time on it until it becomes second nature.

Thanks once more for taking the time to explain the system.
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Grey Owl YouTube
Grey Owl Abstract Photos
Georgia Blues
23 posts
Feb 25, 2013
7:13 PM
Gets right under the radar Grey Owl. Very nice indeed.
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Alex


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