Pauly21
28 posts
Feb 02, 2013
8:29 AM
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Guys,
Been learning a lot about amps from this forum. I understand now that I definitely want tubes, and want to go smaller, 7 watts or less, and overdrive that puppy.
I've seen posts though that say an amp might not be powerful enough for gigs.
Question is, if any amp can be miked through a PA, how could any amp be too small for gigs. Seems like if you get the sound you want at a low volume, just mic it at the gig and you're good to go.
Am I missing something?
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rogonzab
225 posts
Feb 02, 2013
8:37 AM
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as far as I know, these are the problems whit that way:
- Need to deal whit the sound man
- More sound in the monitors, more feedback issues
- you need another mic
Is not that this 3 things are all a nightmare, the problem is that you add thing to the equation.
Buy a small tube amp first, you cant prctice in your home whit a bassman, and as you say, you can always put a mic in front if necesary. Many places are small enough to play whit a 5w.
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timeistight
1072 posts
Feb 02, 2013
8:44 AM
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It all depends on how loud you need to be on stage. It can work if your band is very disciplined about volume, but if you are playing with a loud band, you won't be able to hear yourself through a 7-watt amp. That means you'll need to put the harp amp through
monitors, which will annoy the singer and multiply potential sources of feedback. You may also be tempted to turn your amp up past its sweet spot, wrecking your tone and further increasing feedback problems.
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Playing music... it's a privilege.
Kim Wilson
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2013 8:46 AM
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Thievin' Heathen
139 posts
Feb 02, 2013
8:46 AM
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And...,you (and the other musicians) need to be able to hear yourself on stage.
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Littoral
758 posts
Feb 02, 2013
9:50 AM
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I worked a lot with just a tweed champ but we ran our own sound so it worked. The reason most everyone uses a big amp is because it manages most all of the issues.
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Littoral
759 posts
Feb 02, 2013
9:50 AM
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I worked a lot with just a tweed champ but we ran our own sound so it worked. The reason most everyone uses a big amp is because it manages most all of the issues.
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Rick Davis
1268 posts
Feb 02, 2013
10:10 AM
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There are a few issues to consider if you decide to gig with a small amp:
-You may not be able to hear yourself play. This causes you to play harder to compensate, which destroys both your tone and your harps. Your band has to be really sympathetic to what you are trying to do for this to work.
-If your amp is mic'ed up you can try putting some harp signal through the monitors but this introduces a whole new level of feedback complexity. Both your harp mic and the mic in front of your amp can feed back like crazy from the monitors.
-It takes time to get everything set up perfectly, and "perfect" may be different in every venue.
-Small amps have a narrower range of tone than big amps, especially if you plan to overdrive it. It will be kind of a one-trick pony.
-If you do chose to gig with a small amp you should get a good line out installed, or use a device such as the H&K Red Box DI. This will eliminate the need for the microphone in front of your amp and will lessen the feedback problem.
Gigging with small amps has one huge advantage: The weight. Lugging a Bassman around gets old fast, and sometimes when I am loading up for a gig my little amps look really good. But a big amp is a very quick setup on stage. No reliance on the sound guy in most settings. Huge sound that can keep up with the rest of the band. And a lush range of tones you just can't get from a ratty little amp at full throttle. (I use the word "ratty" with much love.)
Small amps also cost a lot less.
If you go this route you need to become really good at fast setup: Bring an amp stand of some kind. Bring an instrument cable to connect the line out on the amp to an open channel on the mixer. Get somebody to help you set the levels in both the mains and monitors so that you sound good and don't feedback.
Or, set up your big amp and just rip.
Good luck. Lots of guys gig with small amps; just be ready for all the issues.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2013 5:48 AM
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rogonzab
226 posts
Feb 02, 2013
1:26 PM
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Another option is buying a 15w tube amp, and then buy a high sensitivity (Db), that should give a lot more volume that a regular 5w amp.
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Greg Heumann
1974 posts
Feb 02, 2013
5:18 PM
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The advice above for the most part is right on the money. Except the difference between a 5W amp and a 15W amp is not enough. Here's why
In your living room, 90dB seems screaming loud. On stage, I frequently measure sound levels at 98-103dB (yes, that's too loud, but it comes with the territory quite often.) Here's a slightly more involved discussion on the subject; the link will take you to charts and graphs and equations.
The following is excerpted from http://www.musiccenters.com/vol.html
In tests, the average person can detect a 3dB change in volume. 3dB is just enough difference that you can barely tell the volume has changed. A 10 dB change in SPL is perceived as twice as loud. With that in mind we can move on to what is required in terms of power (measured in watts) for an amp to create a 3dB change.
Amplifier output - It takes 2 times the power from an amp to change the volume 3dB. In other words if an amp is producing 1 watt of power it needs to increase to 2 watts of power to make a 3dB change. This is a ratio of 2:1. By the same token if the amp is producing 50 watts of power it will need to increase to 100 watts to produce a 3dB change. 100 watts would take 200 watts for that same change.
How much power would it take to Increase the SPL 10dB? It will take 10 times the power to increase the SPL by 10dB! In other words, if your amp was producing 50 watts of power you would need to increase it to 500 watts to achieve a 10dB increase. (fig A&B) As you can see it takes a lot of power to get a small increase in volume.
So you see - a 3X increase in power (5W to 15W) ain't going to make much difference. About 4.5dB.
If you want to have your eyes opened, get the "SPL" app for the iPhone (and I'm sure there's something comparable for the other modern phone OS's.) I've tested it against a sound meter and it is quite accurate. Now, measure the volume from your amp at home. Then measure the volume on stage where you're having trouble hearing yourself.
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/Greg
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2013 5:39 PM
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Willspear
278 posts
Feb 02, 2013
6:35 PM
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There is no worse feeling than being out gunned live. Doubly so with a poor sound guy. Using small amps requires the sound guy to actively pay attention to the mix.
It sucks to not be able to hear your self.
You can do it though. I'd rather gig a 30-50 watt amp and be able to churn out volume and have the speAker surface area to be heard. I gig a bassman mostly no matter the room. I sometimes play a princeton but its rare these days. My m15 ampeg fills a room pretty well with no assistance.
It sucks to play a 40 watt amp at home for harp. That's where a low watt really helps
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2013 6:36 PM
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kudzurunner
3896 posts
Feb 02, 2013
8:42 PM
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Dennis Gruenling was using a 6 x 10" HarpKing at the Rum Boogie Last night. His stage volume was good.
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rogonzab
227 posts
Feb 03, 2013
6:18 AM
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Greg,
Yes, you are right, I was aware of that (but yes, I did not make that clear)
This is wat I meant:
If you buy a 15w instead of a 5w you get +4.5dB just for the wats. Now, if you add to that a louder speeaker, lets say one that has at least +3dB than the stock speaker, then you got yourself +7.5 dB, and that (I think) is a more significal difference.
In any case, always a bigger amp/speakers is going to move more air.
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jbone
1180 posts
Feb 03, 2013
6:35 AM
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I let go of my Bassman, just too much to lug and too little opportunity to use it. I've had and used a Silvertone 1482 for about 8 years now for small and medium rooms and it holds up pretty well. I don't work with loud bands much any more since I can't be heard and I also value my somewhat damaged hearing or what's left of it.
I refuse to fall into the trap of "If I play louder I'll be heard", that just wrecks reeds. If I can get the band to play softer then great, if not it means I may need to find other options.
I usually work in a duo, in a cafe or small bar, which is no problem for the under 25 watts amp I use. The most I play on stage with lately is maybe 5 pieces. And any opportunity to play through the house band's harp rig at a jam I gladly take! I am also not averse to playing acoustic or acoustic into a p.a. mic if I can get one set to sound decent for harp. My voice needs just about the exact opposite of what a harp needs freq-wise in a p.a. so it's better if I can use separate mics for vocs and harp. Does not happen often.
I'm actually considering a low-z mic that will work well for harp in the p.a. as a dedicated mic in a dedicated channel. Any experiences with different mics etc would be appreciated.
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http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000386839482
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa7La7yYYeE
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Kingley
2289 posts
Feb 03, 2013
6:41 AM
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"I'm actually considering a low-z mic that will work well for harp in the p.a. as a dedicated mic in a dedicated channel. Any experiences with different mics etc would be appreciated."
jbone - A Shure SM57 or 545SD would work well for that purpose as would an Ev RE-10. I've used all of those mics in that fashion and been happy with the results. Personally I prefer the SM57 and 545SD over the RE-10.
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colman
224 posts
Feb 03, 2013
7:43 AM
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Most bands play louder than necessary [guitarest]so the harp has to fight to be up there with the band.the one time I really heard a band with the harp
louder than the rest of the band was with Gary Primich
it was a treat to listen to harp on top with everything else a little lower...that is rare...
so i say if you got to play with loud guitar players use a loud amp...you might even get overtone feedback like a guitar,i did...
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2013 7:45 AM
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TetonJohn
77 posts
Feb 03, 2013
7:50 AM
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So, Pualy21, the OP, you see "it depends." What situation(s) do you see yourself playing in?
(Just FYI, I had been using a larger amp -- 2x6L6, fixed bias -- to be sure I could hear myself over the drums, vocals and guitarist's Super Reverb. However, our band leader/lead guitarist/sound man has recently purchased a little vinatge 5 watter. In the process of talking about it with him, I told him I wanted to try some smaller amps but needed some assurance that I would get enough in my monitor. Result is that last few gigs have been very successful with 5 watters - I also have been using a Sennheiser E609 to mike the amps -- that has probably contributed to the lack of feedback, as well as the placement of the amps vis. a vis. the monitor.
Notice that the situation in which that worked well was predictable/controllable - hence I asked what situations you expect.)
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2013 7:52 AM
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Greg Heumann
1976 posts
Feb 03, 2013
9:17 AM
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"I refuse to fall into the trap of "If I play louder I'll be heard"
An easy trap - and it won't make a difference anyway. Your amp is what allows you to be heard - this difference between gentle but loud and blowing your brains out is a relatively small difference in the overall scheme of things. Add to that that the mic can only handle so much - it won't get louder either, just more distorted. Play nice! Save Reeds!
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/Greg
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dougharps
329 posts
Feb 03, 2013
9:18 AM
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Greg, what if you split your signal (with a preamp to maintain equivalent signal to each output) and used two small amps with similar wattage? If you use 2 'Zoos or two 15 watt amps, is the volume doubled? Or do two amps just equal doubling the wattage on a single amp, with a 3dB change?
Two smaller amps are easier to carry than a Bassman...
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Doug S.
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Pauly21
29 posts
Feb 03, 2013
10:56 AM
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To answer TetonJohn, I see myself playing in small bars.
I definitely got the answer to my question. You can use a small amp but have to deal with feedback and a soundman. A big amp will allow you to be heard.
So here's the next question...If you have to overdrive your tube amp to get that wonderful crunch, can you turn that Bassman or equivalent loud enough to get it to break up? (maybe the Bassman has a preamp to get it to break at a lower volume. I'm not an expert.)
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Kingley
2291 posts
Feb 03, 2013
11:07 AM
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With good technique and some tube swaps you can get break up on a Bassman at lower volumes. With some circuit mods it's probably even easier to do (5F6H is the man to ask for that info). If you want to leave it stock or don't quite have the technique down and want to get break up at lower volumes then a Lone Wolf Harp Attack or Harp Break pedal would be an option to use with it.
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Rick Davis
1272 posts
Feb 03, 2013
11:15 AM
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Pauly, that can be a very complicated discussion. Let's start here: Can you post a Youtube video or sound clip of a harp player with the sound you want to emulate?
Many new players want "that" crunchy sound, but they are not able to recognize what part of it comes strictly from the player and what part is a marriage between the player and the amp. It takes a while to develop that ear. Part of what you are hearing is probably playing and mic technique, not the amp overdriving.
To answer your question directly, yes, you can modify a Bassman -- with tube swaps and minor circuit changes -- to sound good at lower volumes. But a small amp turned up has a wonderful sound that cannot be duplicated by a big amp turned down. If *THAT* is the exact sound you are after I'd recommend you get a Kalamzoo amp from Greg Heumann with a line out and be done with it.
You can always move up to a big amp later, and every harp player needs a good 5-watt tube amp for practice and recording anyway.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2013 11:28 AM
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MN
248 posts
Feb 03, 2013
11:44 AM
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My only amp is a 1x8 Marble Max. I've used it for everything from duos, to an outdoor festival gig with horns, two guitars, keys, drums and bass. The only drawback is having to rely on the sound guy to do his job and not be a moron.
With that said, the reason I don't have a bigger amp for big gigs is A) dough. I have a wife and 3 kids and a mortgage and where I live even a RI Bassman would run me $1k. B) size. I live in a big city and take the bus, tram an/or metro to 95% of my gigs. Dragging a Bassman across the city isn't something I'm about to do.
If I were back in America where gear is cheap and you drive to your gigs, I'd save my pennies and get a 4x10 amp to complement my little one. (As much as I dig my Max, there's something righteous about the thump of a 4x10. I still miss the Bassman I sold when I left the States.)
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Pauly21
30 posts
Feb 03, 2013
12:30 PM
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Ok, Rick, but don't laugh. (I'm an intermediate player according to Adam's test on this site.) The player whose sound I aspire to is Charlie Musselwhite. I'd say the tune "Where Highway 61 Runs" has the crunch. I have a feeling you'll tell me that's all technique. Patience...
In terms of videos, I like the sound of the Harp Gear amp Adam is playing on this website.
Excellent advice all around. I'm very grateful.
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Greg Heumann
1977 posts
Feb 03, 2013
12:45 PM
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@dougharps - if you have 2 5W amps, you have double the power. As said above, that's an increase of 3dB - barely perceptible. The extra speaker does help a dB or 2 as well. But as explained above it probably isn't enough for a typical jam.
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/Greg
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Greg Heumann
1978 posts
Feb 03, 2013
12:48 PM
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@Pauly - small amps are wonderful for recording - because the sound level can be completely managed. On the Ben Harper album, Charlie used a little old Gibson Skylark. 5W or so. Like a Kalamazoo. But when he performs he uses his Sonny Jr Avenger or Super Cruncher whenever possible.
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/Greg
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Rick Davis
1273 posts
Feb 03, 2013
1:57 PM
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Pauly, I ain't laughing... that is a good song and a good tone to try for. I don't know what amp Charlie used on that recording but Greg may know. It doesn't sound like a 5-watt amp. It may well be his SJ Super Cruncher.
It has a nice rip along the front edge of some notes, which is playing technique and amp tone. It sounds good. You could get that tone (with some practice) on lots of good harp amps, even a Bassman-type amp. You get it with kind of a small explosive breath and a slight opening of the playing aperture as you attack the note. (At least that is the way I do it.) It is subtle.
Some amps do that a lot better than others. A small amp will do it okay but you are likely to lose a bit of the dynamics since small single-ended amps are so compressed. I like that sound best on a bigger amp.
It's all good. As I said before, if I were you I'd get a really good small amp with a line out and work out on that for a while.
And.... some random member of this forum is likely to show up soon and declare that you should NEVER even TRY playing through ANY amp until your ACOUSTIC tone is PERFECT. uh... don't listen to 'em. For the sound you aspire to the amp is part of the instrument. You need to be practicing with an amp from now on.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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dougharps
330 posts
Feb 03, 2013
2:09 PM
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@Greg Heumann
Thanks for your response!
@Rick Davis
Now that you mention it, no one brought up building acoustic tone first in over 24 hours of posts in an amp focused thread! Amazing restraint and maturity!
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Doug S.
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Willspear
282 posts
Feb 03, 2013
11:00 PM
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Worth thinking about
A bassman takes one hand to carry
Multiple small amps take more than one hand.
Weight is not the only concern with dealing with moving gear to and from venues. Also a bassman with 4 p10rs is not exceptionally heavy. 45lbs give or take.
Anyone who hauls gear to a club while parked with the lights flashing in a tow zone knows the value of less trips being great.
Also in some places with parking anytime you lose contact with gear by going back to a vehicle for instance. That is when gear gets stolen.
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2013 11:04 PM
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A440
57 posts
Feb 04, 2013
2:39 AM
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Pauly21 - no, you are not missing a thing.
A decent 5 watt tube amp with a 6 or 8 inch speaker (for example the VHT, Fender/Gretsch or Epiphone) can sound pretty darn good by itself in a small venue, say a bar with 15-30 people. Depending on the venue and the volume of the band, at some point you WILL need to mic it through the PA system. I do that with an SM57 right up against the amp's grill cloth, the same way our band's guitar amps are mic'd. It works fine. Usually no feedback issues. The volume knob on my bullet mic gives me some extra control if needed, when the sound man is not on top of things. I have a delay pedal at my foot, and can easily reach the amp to make a slight adjustment on the volume knob.
Yes, placement of the amp, mics and PA are critical - but that is the case for any live band set up. If you follow some basic rules, and have monitors when needed, you can get a good sound with little feedback AND hear yourself in the mix. Our band stands close together with two small monitors, so we all hear the same thing.
For me, a bigger amp makes no sense, since I stopped using a car several years ago (I live in the city center). I can carry my small amp on buses, subways, or simply walk to gigs. My harps and other gear are carried in a back-pack. ...our drummer sometimes gives me jealous looks when he arrives to unload his minivan ;-)
Last Edited by on Feb 04, 2013 2:45 AM
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Willspear
283 posts
Feb 04, 2013
3:31 AM
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If I was gigging in NYC or boston or the like and lived in the city a princeton would be the best amp in the world assuming responsible stage volume.
When I lived in Brooklyn I was dragging around a twin reverb 3 guitars and my effects rig on the subway. It was do able but was not fun.
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SuperBee
878 posts
Feb 04, 2013
4:15 AM
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Yeah, 'assuming responsible stage volume' is the thing. I'd love to be able to gig my Princeton or champ or Epi Vj, but its never gonna happen in my current band.
Best thing I did re amps was pick up that 410. Second choice is the 30w 112, or the PA. but the PA is more often than not just a PIA where I live.
I got a bunch of small amps. I like em but honestly they're not that useful to me. My battery powered pignose is handy, and my VibroChamp XD is cool for practice and taking to drum less jams, and my Legacy Valve Head (rebadged Epi VJ mkII head) is kinda fun through the twin 8"s. my Princeton Reverb is staying with me just cos I like the way it sounds. If I ever make another record, that's the amp I'll use.
But in the irresponsible stage volume reality I live in ATM, the 410 is the only way to go. There is no way I could gig a champ or vht 6 in this band. It would be worse than useless.
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