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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
What do you tell the drummer
What do you tell the drummer
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phogi
125 posts
Nov 22, 2009
4:32 PM
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Suppose you want to play Carey Bell's "Tired of Giving you My Love." Not really a shuffle. Is that kind of groove called a boogie?
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mickil
642 posts
Nov 22, 2009
8:00 PM
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phogi, I don't know the track. But, at jams, I either let the boys know it's a shuffle or it's in straight-time, and I give them the tempo. Sometimes, I just hum a bit of the groove to them. Also, if I'm singing, I tell them what I want: "People always speed up on this one, and I can't play it too fast." Stuff like that. Just give as much info as you can.
I used to lack the confidence to 'conduct' in that way, but, I've never had anyone get funny; they always - so far - seem to just want to make the song go well.
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YouTube SlimHarpMick
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2009 8:02 PM
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GamblersHand
97 posts
Nov 23, 2009
4:27 AM
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I'd call the Carey Bell track "funky, with a strong back beat". Or something. Most blues musicans would play something like this if you called "black cat bone in A"
A boogie tends to more of a John Lee Hooker/"shake your hips" type thing usually - which is pretty much a shuffle anyway
I'm with you on the difficulty of describing grooves at jams, though - I've even thought about getting David Barrets blues drums playalong so I can understand the subtle differences better. And I agree entirely with Mickil's post - the more information you can give your fellow jammers the better.
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barbequebob
117 posts
Nov 23, 2009
9:12 AM
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It comes down to learning about the groove and how it works and too many harp players don't bother to take the time NECESSARY to learn it at all, and if you'rwe calling off a tune, it's your responsibility to know that, cold. It's also a good idea to understand the "language" of a drummer, in terms of what goes where, etc., so you can better communicate with them, and the same goes for other instruments as well so that you can properly communicate your point across to them on the level they can easily understand.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Jim Rumbaugh
111 posts
Nov 23, 2009
10:25 AM
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It helps if you think of some familiar tune that has the grove you want. For a shuffle say,"it's like Kansas City". For straight 4/4 say,"it's like Old Time Rock and Roll" Find a few different tunes to describe the styles you like. hmmmm, that might make a good thread.... name so tunes that describe a grove that most should recognize.
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barbequebob
119 posts
Nov 23, 2009
12:36 PM
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There are tons of different shuffles, and to a rock drummer, if that's what you're dealing with, they're lucky to know maybe 1 or 2 at best. There are some grooves sometimes referred to as a flat tire groove, which some refer to as a backwards shuffle (examples of this are uptempo stuff from T-Bone, or No More Doggin' by Rosco Gordon, and that's only scratching the surface), and it can best be described as the drummer is imitating the feel of a stride piano player, and many drummers have a hard time keeping the time straight on it, usually either slowing down or speeding up like hell.
I've made it apoint over the years to listen to drums and although I can't play drums, even when I pat my hands, I can still give them an idea of what I want, be it using snare, hihat, ride cymbol, floor toms, bass drums, etc., and more musicians (most DEFINITELY harp players are included) should learn this so that not only you get an arangement together, it'll hep you better understand how a groove works.
Like I said, there are TONS of shuffle variations, and you should learn what they ALL sound like and learn how to communicate with a drummer by knowing where you want each part of his kit hitting, etc.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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bluzlvr
270 posts
Nov 23, 2009
12:54 PM
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Freddy King's "Big Legged Woman" would be a good example for that one...
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LittleJoeSamson
137 posts
Nov 23, 2009
3:59 PM
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Drummers know LESS about music theory ( even less than harp players, hawhaw ), but...they don't really need to. I laugh when the local git god turns to the skins cat and yells out, "This is a 1-4, 1-4, 1-5-4, 1-4-5!". I usually stare a hole at the drummer until he turns to see me rolling my eyes, and we both get a chuckle!
I have found that they are most receptive to understanding grooves. You can just repeat it with your hands most of the time, and they pick it up.
OK, sometimes it takes several tries.
( I have a GOOD drummer that worked with Quincey Jones that had a tuff time setting a basic rhumba. Had to slow it down and gradually speed up to get it right. The marginal bass player might have played a part. )
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jaymcc28
189 posts
Nov 24, 2009
8:14 AM
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Slightly off-topic. I attended a memorial luncheon this weekend. The dearly departed was, among other things, a trombone player in a swing band. Several of his bandmates were sitting at our table. I found out I was sitting next to the drummer. I was very excited and tried to strike up a conversation with him, hoping to get some 'insight' on groove. Unfortunately, the gentleman was 87 years old and due to some long set in lung maladies he was unable to really hold a conversation of any length. However, he does still play a regular gig with a small jazz group every Friday evening which i thought was awesome.
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"You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. You Cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom."
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barbequebob
123 posts
Nov 24, 2009
8:18 AM
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Well, on the other hand, sheet music for drums isn't about the notes, but what part of his kit to use and with what values in terms of the rhythm in the measure, so their theory is a tad different, but never the less, it is theory. It's s actually a bit easier to read drum sheet music than it is for other instruments.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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bluemoose
87 posts
Nov 24, 2009
9:48 AM
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Hi:
Saved this from Jeff Hale off harp-l:
FUNDAMENTAL BLUES BEATS
BEATS EXAMPLES
Shuffles
Texas shuffle She's Tuff
Chicago double shuffle (backbeat) Muddy Waters (Sam Lay style)
driving shuffle Mercury Blues
medium-up shuffle Born in Chicago
Jump Blues Caladonia
Slow Blues Stormy Monday
drag (dick-in-the dirt slow blues) Ever Loved a Woman
slow loping blues It Hurts Me Too
Boogie Rocker ?????
Funk George Clinton, James Brown
Swamp-Pop Baby Scratch My Back
Swamp-Tinged Uptempo Blues I Told My Little Woman
Boogie Woogie Piazza's Backdoor Man
swing Kansas City
Clippity-Clop Folsom Prison?
Rumba Cross-Cut Saw
Four on the Floor Crossroads (Cream version)
March Big Boss Man
2-beat Eyesight for the Blind
FUNDAMENTAL BLUES RIFFS/BASSLINES
Hoochie Coochie Man Hoochie Coochie Man
Killing Floor Killing Floor
Lumpty shuffle (this is an up riff)
Dumpty shuffle (this is a down riff)
Lumpty dumpty (this is, you guessed it, an up then down baseline riff)
Hypnotic minor groove
Trance and drone groove
Green Onions Green Onions, Help Me
Elmore James flavor Dust My Broom, Sky is Crying
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Jim Rumbaugh
114 posts
Nov 24, 2009
10:57 AM
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BlueMoose I have 35 years of playing bass, and the last 8 playing harp. I only knew 7 of the tunes in the list. hmmmmmmmmmmmm whoa is me........
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