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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
An IBC Mystery
An IBC Mystery
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Rick Davis
1265 posts
Feb 01, 2013
2:33 PM
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scojo, I may agree with much of what you say about music competitions, but bands really want a blues society to put on an IBC event. There is a strong demand for it.
It is also the biggest fundraiser for the society, so there is incentive on that end.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2013 2:34 PM
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Mojokane
660 posts
Feb 01, 2013
3:25 PM
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Competition is part of our nature.
I did one too, back in 06. My band earned 2nd place.
Probably because we only did covers. Not a wise choice, in a play off. We were only 2 months old as a band. And had no originals. All polished players I knew from years of sittin in with them...
Both bands, can't remember the others, played really well. It was tough for the judges.
I know because they told me (they say that to everybody...ha!.
He told me, "they won because they did originals, and did them well".
If there ever was a sure thing...weeee had it in the bag, man!
We dressed up as nerds with lab coats and pocket protector pen holders, glasses, etc...we were Rocket Science, and sported a great 30 minute set of smokin blues(literally). We had smoke, lights,and a cool heliocraft electro magnetic lightening rod machine(remember those in science class?)
And our repertoire was perfectly suited to the theme. Very cool...bells and whistles, though....
But we played covers.
The 1 st place band played originals, and did em so well, and with soul.
It was such a pleasure to lose to them, too.
Perhaps there can be a category for best cover band...maybe next time.
Originals are the best.
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Why is it that we all just can't get along?<
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KingBiscuit
220 posts
Feb 01, 2013
4:28 PM
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@Adam - I too was in the house when Grady won, both in the semi final and the finals. You are spot on...I don't think he's as good as a lot of the local guys I see playing in jams. But, he is a showman. While standing in line waiting to get into the finals that year, I about got into an argument with some people because they kept yapping on and on that you couldn't possibly play the blues if you didn't come from Mississippi or Tennessee.
Grady's win at IBC got him a gig at the Gahanna blues fest here in Columbus. He was the head liner and was a major let down after some of the great acts we'd seen.
Last year at IBC, I watch R.J. Harmon tear the house down in the quarter finals and then again in the semi. Not only did he not make the finals, he didn't get a mention in the "harp award" given by Lee Oskar....oh well, enough flogging this horse, it's not going to change.
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2013 4:33 PM
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scojo
389 posts
Feb 01, 2013
6:05 PM
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Rick: I totally hear you, and I realize there are some other great counter-arguments... and I always root for my compadres who have gone there and competed (like Eden Brent, who won, and Chris Gill and D'Mar, who placed pretty high, and Sherman Lee Dillon). It's just that, going back to the original discussion about criteria, things are so subjective and flawed that I hate for any musician to take it too seriously. I think the best thing about the competition is the chance to network, and good bands/artists will have networking opportunities regardless of how they fare in the competition itself.
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scojo
390 posts
Feb 01, 2013
6:07 PM
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And KingBiscuit... as one who is from Mississippi, I can confirm that old "you have to be from MS or TN or whatever Delta state to play the blues" canard is horsefeathers. There's plenty of crap music here, as well as plenty of great stuff... like everywhere else.
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HarpNinja
3168 posts
Feb 01, 2013
8:20 PM
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I don't create any tests of any sort.
"Mike, you seem to think the test (the scoring system) is more important than the music."
It 100% is if we are talking a music competition and you're trying to win it. It just so happens, though, that music is part of the scoring.
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Custom Harmonicas
Optimized Harmonicas
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Rick Davis
1266 posts
Feb 01, 2013
8:38 PM
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Kingbiscuit, I was there last year too and saw the same thing. Is good harp playing undervalued in the IBC generally? When was the last time a really good harp player won? Ever? Just curious here....
Actually, Dan Treanor is a very good player and still in it. We'll find out late tonight if he makes the finals.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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Rick Davis
1267 posts
Feb 02, 2013
6:31 AM
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....And Dan Treanor's band has advanced to the finals in Memphis today! That ain't no IBC mystery. His band is outstanding.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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Littoral
757 posts
Feb 02, 2013
7:01 AM
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Qualitative and Quantitative criteria.
90% of the people wouldn't read any farther. Too complicated. We live in a sound bite world that wants a short one sentence summary, or better, a number. The real world is a whole lot more complicated than that. This doesn't mean than we can't assess "complicated things:" but doing it well enough to say something meaningful takes a whole lot of work. Very few people are willing to do that.
Most people have already skipped down this thread to another post.
IBC, I haven't seen a rubric so far, only a list of criteria categories. A rubric is designed to further define the criteria for each possible score within each scoring category. Creating a valid rubric requires repeated trials, careful evaluation of the results and repeat until the results are consistent -with NEW evaluators. But getting general categories of criteria is easy, just don't expect the results to really mean anything. Next, getting a valid score amongst judges, no matter how experienced they are, is hopeless without a rigorous series of training sessions with modeled examples of bands at every criteria level. Then the judges need a lot of time to practice, discuss the results and practice again.
Nope, ain't doing that, too much work.
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2013 9:31 AM
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Rick Davis
1270 posts
Feb 02, 2013
5:57 PM
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UPDATE: Dan Treanor's band finished 3rd in the IBC Finals. Amazing!
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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The Iceman
721 posts
Feb 03, 2013
6:07 AM
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Selwyn Birchwood band (Suncoast Blues Society, FL) won the band competition.
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The Iceman
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Rick Davis
1271 posts
Feb 03, 2013
6:52 AM
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Iceman, yep. Selwyn Birchwood also won best guitarist prize, a custom Gibson ES-335.
It is interesting that the band that played last won the finals. That happens so often in the IBC, and the last slot is much coveted by bands. The Blues Foundation chose to use alphabetical order on band name instead of a random selection.
I am not taking ANYTHING away from Selwyn Birchwood. I've heard him and he is excellent, and my understanding is that his set in the IBC finals was killer.
Still, it does tend to support the notion (rightly or wrongly) that going last is a big advantage.
(I predict lots of bands in the IBC next year with names that begin with words like "Willie" or "Yonder" or "Zenobia."
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2013 6:56 AM
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TetonJohn
76 posts
Feb 03, 2013
7:22 AM
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I'm sure glad dancers don't have scorecards and vote with their bodies not their minds!
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Blind Melon
53 posts
Feb 26, 2013
9:48 AM
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Rick,
I can not explain how, based on this video, that Jack Yoder would have won over the second video.
But I will add that if I were to walk into a bar and Jack Yoder was playing that song from the video, I would immediately turn around and look for another bar.
Now, if I walked into a bar and Al and Nick was playing that song from the video, I would find a seat, grab a beer, and probably sit through at least the rest of that set.
Also, in regards to stage presence, I feel that it is important, but does not trump talent.
Just my own personal thoughts...
Last Edited by Blind Melon on Feb 26, 2013 9:49 AM
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LSC
372 posts
Feb 26, 2013
11:16 AM
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@Rick - To address your question as to how one might make the judging better at determining an "objective reality" as to what is "better music".
You are trying to achieve an objective judgement on what is by nature a subjective art form. One persons Beethoven is another persons crap. Chasing an objective criteria to determine the best of a subjective subject is never going to achieve a satisfactory result. Consequently, my first suggestion would be to accept this fact. How to make the judging somehow fairer is another matter.
I can understand wanting to perhaps abandon the IBC criteria, however one would still need to consider that is the criteria by which any local winner will be ultimately judged, like it or not. So one could change the criteria of judging at the local level but ask the question, "Will that leave our submission unprepared for the big contest." If you don't care about giving your local submission a chance fair enough but otherwise it would be wise to at least keep the IBC rules in mind.
It seems to me the IBC rules are not designed to find the best musicians producing the best music but rather to find the best "total package" because that is what has the best chance of some commercial success, remembering that the top prizes have to do with an act that will sell and that is rarely based strictly on musicianship.
There have been several mentions of politics and lack of knowledge skewing the judging. I know here in my town the board of the local blues society is unelected and run as a closed shop. There isn't even a general meeting of any sort, ever. The membership is simply dictated to. The local contest to send acts to Memphis is judged by people who are exclusively friends of the board. Most have some sort of blues cred but often it is questionable as to whether their opinion has anymore value than anyone one could pick from the audience at random. So, I would start with taking a very close look at how judges are selected and by what criteria.
As to judging itself, perhaps it would be an idea to have a somewhat larger panel and throw out the high and low scores to arrive at an aggregate consensus.
I would also suggest that perhaps not allowing board members to compete to avoid any bias be considered. Tough I know as often those folks would make the best entrants.
Allowing contestants to get some feedback is also a good idea. Locally, the contestants are given copies of the scoring and judges comments with the the judges names blacked out. The one year I competed I found that there was one judge who thought we were the best thing ever. I'm pretty sure I knew who it was due to their reaction on the night. I also discovered somethings that were kind of whack. One judge gave a poor score for originality despite the fact that two of the three songs were original material, one of which had actually won a couple of songwriting awards. Yet the act that won performed strictly traditional covers with no sort of different take. The fact that one of the members of that act was also an officer of the society raised some questions in my mind, though to be fair they were quite good and probably better than what we were on the night.
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LSC
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LSC
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Tuckster
1263 posts
Feb 26, 2013
1:23 PM
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Rick- As a board member of our local blues society,I've found that the hardest part of the whole affair is finding unbiased,knowledgeable judges. We try to get judges from outside our area who don't know any of the bands. Frankly.it's a major pain in the butt. We also throw out the low and high score in case there's some unknown favoritism.
As for setting your own rules: When they go to Memphis,they're going to be judged on IBC rules,so you might as well do it that way locally.
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