I'm a five-plus year player who only started to get serious about overblows about a year ago. I have a favourite harp (a cheap Big River in G) that I have been playing almost exclusively for that year, since I'm also working on singing and it is nicely in my register. Anyway, I managed to gap that harp properly for the 6 OB and have been working on control and tone of that one note and working it into my playing. It's been going well. Every once in a while I'd miss that hole and hit the 5 by mistake. I'd get a squawk out of it, just the threshold of the overblow. I tried to get that 5 OB a bunch of times and could almost. I thought maybe I just needed to gap it better, but never got around to it.
To get to my point, in a recent thread, which I couldn't find again, The Iceman said that he thinks about OBs in terms of focusing the breath. Until that statement, I had just been thinking about developing the necessary back pressure. Yesterday, I noticed where I was focusing my breath on the 6OB then tried the 5OB and aimed a bit lower. Immediately I got a sustainable OB with nice tone that I could consistently repeat. I tried the 4OB next and hit it for the first time, again aiming a little lower (but I'm pretty sure I need to adjust the gapping to get that one right).
So, thanks Iceman, for sharing that suggestion. I'd be really interested to hear from other skilled overblowers about the Iceman's take on OBing and about how you think about it yourselves.
Edit: I tongue block my OBs, BTW, but I suspect that does not make much difference in this discussion.
----------
Last Edited by on Dec 20, 2012 10:15 AM
I always aim the air to the back of my teeth...near where my two front teeth and gums intersect.
The pressure of that air all comes from back pressure.
It is a total myth that overblowing is harder than any other type of bend. The biggest issue is the action of the harp, but it is also misleading that you can only play those notes with customs. You can get them to slam shut on a lot of harps.
Reality is, the advantages of a custom include better bending all around...the only really tricky thing is overdraw squeal...that can be hard to tame on your own. But, a 6OB, for example, is easily accessible if you can blow bend and have a decent harp. ---------- Custom Harmonicas
Bingo. You got the concept. Also, that "aiming a little lower" as you go from 6 down to 4 is right on the money. As a matter of fact, all notes created through bending technique should be approached with this awareness....each bend has an "aim spot".
Once you've got the target spots firmly in your mind's eye and your muscle memory (through repetition) comes into play, you will find creating all these notes - right on pitch - is not too terribly difficult.
The best students I get are rank beginners who have never played diatonic (therefore have no bad habits to unlearn). They learn my concepts about placement and target spots and every one of them is controlled bending to pitch, feeling the "floor" and eventually get into OB w/out difficulty....mostly within a week or 2 of learning the concepts.
This is my validation for my approach...success rate at accelerated speed. ---------- The Iceman
I'm retro. Computer is a tower....windows xl.......no video camera....not even a microphone.
My lessons work best in person...I work off the student or group.
For instance, in teaching to inhale bend, I don't even demonstrate. I just talk through the concept and have students try it. Then, I refine my description as they struggle with the idea, based on what they produce or how it sounds, using them as kind of an instant feedback to how it is progressing. Everyone is a little different, so I taper the approach to the individual.
Just me looking at a camera and talking would feel a little odd w/out something to work off of.
" it is also misleading that you can only play those notes with customs. You can get them to slam shut on a lot of harps."
HarpNinja: Yes, sure. But the harp in question here is a Big River in G. You imply that OBs are easily accessible on this harp. They are not. They are on a lot of other harps, but not this one. This one has the double whammy of being in G and not being airtight. As you say, the 6 is fairly easy to set up (on almost any harp). But the 5 not so much and the 4 is a stretch.
Mr So&so: Not to detract from the topic of breath focus, but I think working on getting the 4 and 5 ob on your harp is not realistic, or rather, not the best choice. The problem with the Big River is the comb. You need an airtight harp to hit overblows easily. Some would say that an airy harp builds muscle, but I think you need precision more than muscle to execute overblows and I think an airtight harp is a really big help.
Mike is right that you don't need a custom to hit overblows. You can get a better comb for your harp and that will go a long way. You have played with the gaps to get the 6 OB, and once you upgrade your comb, you should be able to do the same with holes 4 and 5.
Mind you, the 4 OB on a G harp is a pain to set up. But that's a different topic... The point is it is possible to get overbends on a Big River but you need to do some work first.
Larry - you mean you don't have a retro Bose video camera ;) plus feeling a little odd never hurt a harp players career … I bet hard cash you'd be an instant MBH video teaching sensation! I have a Logitech camera with a built in microphone that is plug and play you can have to get you started? Come on Iceman, be a sport :)
one trick I have never heard of elsewhere on the 4 and 5 overblow that works sometimes is hitting the blow note above (5 or 6 respectively) and sort of sliding in to the overblow on the lower note... Something about the sympathetic vibrations seems to make it easier plus the higher tone lets your ear hear what your mouth needs to attain.. a slightly lower tone on the hole below.
Thanks for the offer. However, computer is in bedroom.
I teach in family room from behind my baby grand....nothing like a piano keyboard to give students a great visual reference for the notes and how they relate to one another.
However, it seems a lot of my explanations on this site and also the "L" seem to resonate with those willing to get past the words into the actual meanings...also, to try out the concepts without a pre-conceived resistance in place.
As I've said before, I have much greater and accelerated success teaching those that have never played diatonic.
Students who have been into their harmonica for a while before coming to see me have a lot of resistance built in and it is harder for them to unlearn bad habits and replace them with new muscle memory. ---------- The Iceman
Thanks to everyone who has replied so far. I, for one, am thankful for any advice from The Iceman and the other talented players here who are so kind to share it, in whatever format they choose.
@arzajac I do like my BR in G, but I agree that it is probably not the best harp to try to tweak into a full-blown OB harp. I will be corresponding with you soon about getting some of my little-used MBs upgraded. My post was indeed about technique. I guess I was lucky with this particular harp that a few OB were pretty much there OTB. The Iceman's tip on technique helped me find that previously-elusive 5OB. I doubt I will get many more overbends out it.
Ahhhh, your no fun Larry... all work (work off a real keyboard) and no play makes jack a dull boy :) ...You surely have some young fashion ways left in those old bones of your? I'll leave you alone now, I pestered you enough- thanks for your patience and good nature!
I dunno, I have a LF# and LEb# and they pop. I realize it is easier for me, but we're talking getting the notes to sound, and not necessarily the harp being optimal.
I had a Chinese Hohner out this morning. It was easier to pop the 4, 5, 6 OBs than play the 3 hole bends. Again, you can get the note to sound. The timbre, reliability, and playability will suffer, but the note will readily sound.
The best "stock" harps to OB are the Hohner handmade if only because they have less squeal. Customized, the 1847 makes a FANTASTIC harp. I have an A Session Steel that has bumped off all my other A harps.
Reviving this thread to report that to my surprise I can now get the 4ob on my trusty but lowly and much maligned Big River G harp. This discovery was quite by accident. My 5ob is coming along and for some reason, I decided to try the 4ob right after doing a 5ob and it was right there, sounding pretty full and sustainable. Previously, I had not been able to get anything on the 4 and had assumed that it probably wasn't possible on this harp. But it seems that by starting with sufficient back pressure already generated and with correct "aiming" of breath it is possible.
This gets me to thinking about technique versus "optimizing" the reeds and slots. I've only done a little gapping of this harp a long time ago and that is it. But I've been playing it exclusively for about a year now (because I'm working on singing too, and this harp is nicely in my range), so perhaps I'm just super familiar with how it responds. I can't explain why this cheap harp is now overblowable, and it's raising lots of questions. Has anyone else out there managed to get 4,5,6 overblows on basically stock harps? Is this one of mine just a one-in-a-million fluke great cheap harp? Or does technique have more importance in the equation than I have come to believe?
Edit: Well, to answer my own question, Adam does get overblows with minimal gapping. But how many others do this on cheap(er) harps? ----------
Last Edited by mr_so&so on Feb 21, 2013 9:49 AM
I am good at overblowing and drawing. That doesn't mean I am a good player, but I am good at the technique. I also know a few things about setting up harps. First, most good harps will pop OBs out of the box. That doesn't mean they are great, but they are there.
If you just need to slam the reeds here and there to get the note to sound, then most harps simply gapped will let you do that. However, if you want those notes to work like the other bends on the harp, then you need to do more work.
I started on the 6OB first and then the 5 & 4 came a little later. They have a very slight difference in execution and it's only when you get down to a 1 OB does the technique change quite a bit where the pressure comes from lower down in the mouth throat.
After I could play the 4,5 & 6 OB's I found that I could play them on most of my harps (although some were not so stable as I would have liked and needed adjustment) and subsequently on most new OOTB harps. Every now and then you get a OOTB harp where either the blow or corresponding draw holes reeds are set too far from the reed plate and have to be adjusted to get the OB.
When you can play them you know when the reeds are not set too well. The trouble is when you can't play them you can never be sure that the harps you're trying them on are duff! ---------- Grey Owl YouTube Grey Owl Abstract Photos
@ Grey Owl, Thanks. And your last statement there: "When you can play them you know when the reeds are not set too well. The trouble is when you can't play them you can never be sure that the harps you're trying them on are duff!" is the great paradox of learning to play the harp.
Q. How do you do that? A. You keep at it until you can do it, then you can really learn how to do it.
I guess in the case of overbends, the handyman's adage about using the right tool for the job also applies. You can get the job done with out-of-the-box harps, perhaps, but if you start with the right tool (an "optimized" harp) you'll get the job done better and faster.
Edit: I wish I could afford the right tools, right now, for both harp and home renos. ----------
Last Edited by mr_so&so on Feb 21, 2013 10:26 AM
More oft than not, players hit the OBs really flat. This is way easier to do then hit them in pitch. The trick is to learn to hit the note in tune at the very least. This is MUCH harder to do on a harp that is just a good OOTB harp with some gapping - especially on lower keys.
Generally, I have no problems hitting the OBs and ODs in pitch (or super close) on harps with really good profiles. I also don't play too hard as to still benefit from gapping.
The real important thing for me, though, is the ability to hold onto those notes like a blow bend or regular draw bend. They have to be just as easy and useful.
You also can effect the timbre of the overbend with modificaiton. However, like any bend on the harmonica, they will never sound the exact same. ---------- Custom Harmonicas Optimized Harmonicas
I got a new G Special 20 from the local shop on Tuesday. I kid you not, the 6OB, draw bends, and blow bends were absolutely spectacular.
I compared it to three custom G's from different builders and the 6OB and blow bends were every bit as good as any of them. The timber was different, the tuning not as good, and the bottom hole bends weren't as good, but what a great harp!
3/4 of the ODs popped, but they were airy and squealed. IMO, the real artistry in doing OB/OD builds are the ODs...and the 4-5OBs on low harps. ---------- Custom Harmonicas Optimized Harmonicas
@HarpNinja, I'm dying to get my hands on a well set-up harp. I am surprised, though, that the OBs I'm getting are sounding pretty good. The only pitch testing I've done is by ear (playing scales), and I think they are close. I also realized yesterday that I can get some vibrato on the 5 and 6, which I think means I'm starting to be able to adjust the pitch by bending, which I previously couldn't do either. I'll keep plugging away with what I have until I save enough pennies for a better harp. ----------
