Ant138
141 posts
Oct 01, 2009
1:05 AM
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The time has come for me to knuckle down and try to learn some scales. I know the Blues scale which i'm comfortable with but i dont really know what scale to learn next.
Has anyone got any ideas?
I really want to start to play fast runs.
Would the mixolidian scale help me to do this?
Is there a difference between the pentatonic scale and the blues scale?
I would be gratefull if someone could tab the pentatonic scale out for me if its different to the Blues scale.
I'm sorry if i sound ignorant but i've put off learning scales for so long now but the time has come if i'm to improve.
I have wathed Jason Ricci lesson on playing fast, where he plays the pentatonic scale but he's playing a Eb harp and thats a key i dont own. Im not sure what notes hes playin.
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Last Edited by on Oct 01, 2009 1:15 AM
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MrVerylongusername
533 posts
Oct 01, 2009
1:56 AM
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The blues scale is basically a minor pentatonic with an extra note, the flat 5th.
This might help...
http://www.tenhole.com/?menuid=279
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phogi
46 posts
Oct 01, 2009
3:52 AM
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major Pentatonic:
Low octave in cross:
2, 3 bent whole step, 3, 4, 5 blow, 6 blow.
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Buddha
1036 posts
Oct 01, 2009
4:43 AM
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this is all you need.
http://www.amazon.com/Thesaurus-Scales-Melodic-Patterns-Text/dp/082561449X
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"The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."
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arzajac
51 posts
Oct 01, 2009
4:48 AM
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If I keep practicing, one day, I may be able to play the chromatic scale on a diatonic harp like this:
http://tenhole.com/server/files/mp3/old/chromatic.mp3
I'm sure that would help with fast runs...
That clip is from this page:
http://tenhole.com/index.php?menuid=298
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ChrisA
83 posts
Oct 01, 2009
5:07 AM
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scale finder applet here, you can also download it on your computer for offline use.
http://www.overblow.com/?menuid=26
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Buddha
1037 posts
Oct 01, 2009
5:22 AM
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if you don't know what else to play then, take a scale that you know and play it in another position.
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"The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."
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tookatooka
574 posts
Oct 01, 2009
5:33 AM
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Yeah! Scales confusion again. If I play a tune which uses notes from the second position blues scale and also notes which are in the third position blues scale, what position am I playing in and how do I determine what the position is if someone should ask?
I'm not talking about any particular tune here, but tunes I make up myself.
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Last Edited by on Oct 01, 2009 5:44 AM
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Buddha
1038 posts
Oct 01, 2009
5:45 AM
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don't think in positions... think in terms of sound or music. The further you get away from thinking of technique and mechanics, the closer you are to playing real music.
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"The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."
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tookatooka
575 posts
Oct 01, 2009
5:54 AM
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Thanks Buddha, I needed that shove in the right direction again. I get caught up in the technicalities of it all too frequently and I know I shouldn't.
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Preston
510 posts
Oct 01, 2009
6:16 AM
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I have been trying to get away from positions and think in terms of scale degrees. I guess this is what Buddha means by terms of music, but I've found it makes playing in other positions not very scary at all.
Ant, I mainly focus on the major and minor pentatonics. There is a world of stuff to keep me busy in just those two scales.
Yes, the Minor Pentatonic is just a flat 5th shy of the blues scale, so if you are comfortable with the blues scale, you already know the Minor Pen.
I have recently found I love the sound of playing in the Major Pentatonic scale, but throwing that damn blue third in there. It makes for some good music. (in my opinion that is)
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Ant138
142 posts
Oct 01, 2009
7:47 AM
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Thanks guy's all this info should keep me busy for a while.
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RyanMortos
345 posts
Oct 01, 2009
9:16 AM
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Would you look at that I had the major pent all wrong.
I was so confused why what I was practicing wasnt starting and ending on the same note, lol.
I was doing 1d, 2b, 3b, 3d'', 3d, 4d, 5b, 6b, heh. See, you never know who your advice will help & how :D !
Btw, thanks for the book recommendation Buddha, I plan to take a look at it.
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~Ryan
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
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DesertDog
15 posts
Oct 01, 2009
5:46 PM
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Ryan, (1d 2b) is part of the major pentatonic -- it's just in the lower octave.
One nice thing about the major pentatonic is that there are two full octaves:
1d 2b) (2d 3d" 3d 4d 5b 6b 6d 7d 8d 8b 9b) (10d
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DesertDog
16 posts
Oct 01, 2009
5:53 PM
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I guess I should qualify the above statement. Two full octaves without over blowing or over drawing.
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DaDoom
129 posts
Oct 02, 2009
3:28 AM
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Hey Ant
Try some minor scales. I love to experiment on them. There's a nice video by Jason Ricci where he explains different minor modes.
You might start with this one:
2d / 3d full bent / 3d / 4b / 4d /4ob / 5d / 6b
Add some flutter when you land on the 3d full bent and you'll sound very oriental. Cool stuff really.
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tookatooka
580 posts
Oct 02, 2009
3:51 AM
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This may sound like a really stupid question but I'll go for it anyway.
What benefit will practicing scales give me? Apart from being able to go up and down with a particular scale and increasing the speed as I get better how will I be able to use it in the future and how can I incorporate the new scale into my playing?
Told you it was stupid but I'm keen to know as I have learnt a few scales and apart from being good at scales I don't know how it has helped me unless I am subconciously using snippets of these scales in my playing without realising it.
And another thing. Do you mentally note the number of the note you are playing as you slide up and down the harp? I do and I'm finding it gets in the way of my thought processes. Hopefully when I become more proficient I won't need to do this anymore.
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Last Edited by on Oct 02, 2009 4:45 AM
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DaDoom
130 posts
Oct 02, 2009
4:51 AM
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hey tookatooka
I'm not an expert myself but scales will help you in several ways. Of course being able to play them fast helps you play fast runs up and down the harp.
But the main reason why you should know them well is harmony. Music is played in different modes and knowing what scale can be played over a certain mode will help you improvise.
Example: if a certain song is played in a minor mode (determined by the sequence of chords) you'll be able to improvise by using your minor scales. If you just play notes from another scale (lets say a major or a blues scale) that does not work over minor you'll sound really really bad ;) Knowing the scale will help you know what notes will fit the music so that you can restrict your improvisation to the notes that work.
That's why you can't just pick up a harp and play ANY notes over a I, IV, V chord progression and sound like you're playing blues (wouldn't that be nice...). But if you know the blues scales (and even better if you know them in several positions) you'll always know what works.
Cheers
DaDoom
PS.: there's no such thing as a stupid question. Only bad answers ;)
Last Edited by on Oct 02, 2009 4:57 AM
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tookatooka
581 posts
Oct 02, 2009
5:14 AM
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Good answer.That makes things clearer. Thanks DaDoom.
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kudzurunner
726 posts
Oct 02, 2009
5:24 AM
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DaDoom:
Excellent question. I'm not disputing Buddha at all on this, or JR, but I spent a lot of time--a LOT of time--practicing scales as a guitar player, especially in the aftermath of my 7 weeks at Berklee studying jazz guitar--and they didn't help me much. I certainly got fast at practicing scales. But I wasn't able to make the leap from practicing scales to playing interesting melodies over chord changes. It became clear to me that I just didn't have the mind of a jazz musician.
On the other hand, I got a lot from a book of Joe Pass guitar solos. The man has an incredible melodic imagination: every note is perfect, and beautiful. Perfect economy. It's a limiting style in the long run, but it made me understand how it would feel for my fingers to play a real jazz solo IF I actually had a jazzman's melodic imagination.
Here's a dirty little secret: I switched my attentions from guitar to harmonica because I knew my limited melodic imagination would go a whole lot further on the smaller instrument. Great, facile guitarists were a dime a dozen, but the same couldn't be said for harp. I believe I made the right choice. :)
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kudzurunner
727 posts
Oct 02, 2009
5:30 AM
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Here's the book I'm talking about. It's not a beginner's text.
http://www.amazon.com/Joe-Pass-Guitar-Style/dp/0739018655/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254486485&sr=8-5
I'd encourage you guys to put "Joe Pass guitar" in the amazon search engine and take a look at his many offerings. I may just buy a DVD myself!
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Buddha
1046 posts
Oct 02, 2009
5:30 AM
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I believe the reason for practicing scales it to learn the entire instrument. By playing scales you are teaching yourself note relationship and where all of the available sounds and notes exist. Scales work to create pathways in your brain to help you make good music later on. Once you learn the scales you need to forget them and just play. After enough work you'll be able to hear something and play it.
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"The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."
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