First comment and Ronnie's response is important too.
Sounds great man, but I think you have your terminology confused a little bit. Playing on, behind or on-top of the beat refers to the time feel more than what you're talking about. I think what you're talking about is actually more of a phrasing thing? whether you're ANTICIPATING the changes or hitting them on the down beat or letting them happen and you wait. There's a big difference between phrasing and when your talking about time, even though both of them are sort of the same thing.
Rich DaSilva 2 years ago 7
i've heard it both ways but i the message is what's important? here, and i what i'd like players to do is switch up (phrasing/timing) of their licks. thanks for the input.
RonnieShellist in reply to Rich DaSilva 2 years ago 3
Rick Estrin does a good demonstration of this concept on his latest DVD, "Secrets, Subtleties, and Tricks of the Blues Harmonica." And it is very entertaining...
Type "playing behind the beat" in YouTube, and you will get all sorts of videos (drummers and otherwise) demonstrating the concept.
I'll tell the truth, as I view the YouTube videos I'm not sure I always hear what they're demonstrating. So far (almost 4 decades) I've not been kicked out of bands for bad rhythm, so I'll cling to that.
As an aside, I don't think what Ronnie Shellist is talking about or playing in any way demonstrates the concept, but, again, maybe I'm just not hearing it.
"As an aside, I don't think what Ronnie Shellist is talking about or playing in any way demonstrates the concept, but, again, maybe I'm just not hearing it."
I don't think so either. I agree with the quoted YouTube comment: What he calls "playing ahead of the beat" is what I'd call anticipating the change. Not the same thing.
Last Edited by on Dec 05, 2012 1:26 AM
The tension of playing with time (behind/in front) allows the player to control and resolve the feel of a phrase -that's why it is effective. I say it's not always what you do but when you don't do it. Insert analogous experience here :) A favorite example of mine that I think can be heard pretty easily is T-Bone Walker's guitar -especially his solos. He often plays in front which allows him to control & resolve the feel of the tune.
Last Edited by on Dec 05, 2012 5:02 AM
JD, Ronnie Shellist is a friend here in Denver. Check him out at Harmonica123.com
He does have a band and gigs occasionally, but I think he spends most of his energies these days on lessons and seminars. His first CD "Chicago Sessions" with the band The Shuffletones is freaking great harp work.
There is a drumming book that comes with a Cd that you may want to get a hold of called "It's About Time," by Fred Dinkins. In the book, the CD has 10 tunes as an example to listen to, tho none of the tunes are blues at all, but are worth listening to just to hear the differences in playing on top, ahead or behind the beat.
Now he calls on top/right on the beat as being in the middle of the beat, ahead of the beat as on top of the beat, and behind the beat as in back of the beat, which I have heard that way before so don't sweat it.
There are 10 tunes that are not only done in 3 different tempos, you also get the correct BPM's in each example, plus each example has a version that's on top, ahead, as well as behind the beat, so you can clearly hear how the subtle stuff of how these things work actually makes a HUGE difference in how the groove plays out, and in just about each time he has the example played behind the beat, he describes it has sounding bluesier, which is correct.
It's worth getting and I believe it's available thru Amazon.com.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=it's+about+time+by+Fred+Dinkins&rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3Ait's+about+time+by+Fred+Dinkins&ajr=0 ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Dec 05, 2012 10:47 AM
thanks Rick and Kumuso, I had seen all the youtube stuff but not the cd's, that's what I was looking for. Would be great to see him live with a band that he works with, not just a jam or pickup band. But I certainly understand why one doesn't pursue that life. And he is obviously a great teacher.
Most Muddy Waters' band recordings are full of great examples of playing behind the beat and orchestrated syncopation. ---------- "Being a humanist means trying to behave decently without expectation of rewards or punishment after you are dead."--Kurt Vonnegut, jr., 1922~2007
Thank you for all the suggestions. They have sent me wandering, looking and listening. I have found many, many disapointments,(and quite frankly, a lot of bullshit) but I think I have found one sample that is worth listening to.
It is very different from the the "Ronnie" example above. After listening, I would say, I know very few musicians that can hear the difference, or can deliberatley change their rhythm to play ahead or behind the beat.
It is not an "in your face" difference to my ears, though I "think" I can hear it. Tell me what you hear.
---------- theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
Last Edited by on Dec 05, 2012 7:33 PM
I think the guitar player picked a tempo that was too fast to best demonstrate this. I don't hear much of a difference. To me, when he tries to play behind or ahead of the beat, it just sounds like someone who needs to work on their timing. Again, I think he picked a tempo that was too fast.
With all due respect to Ronnie, he is talking about playing ahead/behind of THE CHANGES. That is not my understanding of what ahead of or behind the beat means! It is a much more subtle timing issue and has to do with the relative timing of the main rhythm notes from bass and drums (and keys).
It is described better by the guitar player in Jim's video. It describes YOUR rhythm relative to THE rhythm (metronome or drums). When you listen to the guitar in this video, listen MOSTLY to the metronome and you can hear the difference. ---------- /Greg
Greg, I agree... It is mostly about playing behind or ahead of the changes, not the "beat." When Estin talks about playing ahead or behind the beat he seems to be talking about the changes, too. Kind of confusing.
OK... Now I think we're getting somewhere. What we have collectively established is:
1) playnig ahead and behind the CHANGES is not the same as "THE BEAT"
2) We still need a better audio example (per Todd Parott and my own poorly trained ears) of ahead and behind the CHANGES
3) there is a lot of confusion of terms when describing this subject. ---------- theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
Last Edited by on Dec 06, 2012 10:19 AM
My interpretation of playing "behind the beat", at least in bluesy music, is playing the 2 and the 4 late.
Conceptually the pulse of the kick drum on the 1 and 3 defines the beat, but the delay to the backbeat gives the groove that essential push and pull.
I think that the concept is more associated with the rhythm section rather than solo instruments like the harp.
This seems to be a fairly loose term - I've heard both playing the changes late, and soloing/accenting off the "2" rather than the "1" also being called playing behind the beat
Playing behind the beat means also the 1 & 3 are behind the beat as well, and it also applies to whoever is soloing as well. The type of tune that Gambler'sHand is thinking of is the Wilson Pickett tune, In The Midnight Hour, where the 1 & 3 is on top of the beat with 2 & 4 behind, and this is very difficult for most drummers to pull off right without screwing up the groove.
Playing behind the changes is more like phrasing off the 2 & the 4 (that being at a starting point for the phrase). ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Dec 06, 2012 11:00 AM
I tend to use the term most often like Gambler does. I'm looking for more groove or swing. The 2 and 4 are little like a yo-yo snapping back to catch up, delayed just a suble hair. The brushes have that feel here in relation to the rythem guitar. He may even be starting the hit on the beat, but the feel of is delayed and sets up a rythmic tension. SB's chord have that behind the beat feel too - and now that I'm listening again happen on all beats - I do dance around the beat when soloing, from on top of to behind mostly, - but I consider that part of phrasing. It is not consistant through the whold song. ----------
Last Edited by on Dec 06, 2012 4:40 PM
Here's one with Norm DeCarlo doing a New Orleans beat with a subtly behind 1 & 3 - behind in relation to a metronome that is. He is establishing the beat for the tune. My playing messes around on and behind.
I sounds subtle but it doesn't feel subtle. Again, The tension of playing with time (behind/in front) allows the player to control and resolve the feel of a phrase -that's why it is effective.
