Rick Davis
954 posts
Dec 03, 2012
2:39 PM
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After a jammer used my Mission amp in a set last night I found that he had the volume on the amp all the way up. I mean totally maxed out on a loud 35-watt amp. He had not sounded that loud at all, so I presume he had his mic turned way down.
His tone was typical of an average jammer: Kind of thin. So whatever he was trying to accomplish was wasted, but it did give me a moment of panic when the next jammer plugged into the amp.
So, I think the theory is that cranking the amp will work it hard and achieve power tube distortion. I've never found this to be true at all, to my ear. Cranking the amp and turning the mic way down has never had a pleasing tone for me.
Am I wrong about this? Do you dime the amp and choke down on the mic?
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
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Littoral
667 posts
Dec 03, 2012
2:39 PM
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No, I've never found it useful. There may be an exception -mic type may matter.
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lumpy wafflesquirt
657 posts
Dec 03, 2012
3:24 PM
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I suspect that tomorrow night I'll be cranking my little street cube up to 11 and still not be heard, it'll be the first time I've used it in a band setting.
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"Come on Brackett let's get changed"
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SuperBee
683 posts
Dec 03, 2012
3:34 PM
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I've seen it advocated, but I could never understand the reasoning. I like my mic on full as a default. Usually I am trying to get as loud as possible, might turn the mic down a little but only if I misjudged the amp setting and feedback develops. Or if there is a quieter part of the song and I want to drop the volume to give me a bit more room for dynamics. On my master volume amp I do run the volume high but only so I can keep the gain low for a nice smoother overdriven sound which is clean when I want it to be. I think the sound gets very uninterestingly 1 dimensional when its distorted all the time. Like when I play guitar....
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JD Hoskins
142 posts
Dec 03, 2012
3:28 PM
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There are guiarists that do that. But I'm with you, I don't even like turning the volume control below about 3/4 on most mics. Maybe if you had the high pass filter like Rod Piazza used to do, you would retain better tone, but it doesn't work for me.
Could he have turned it up as he unplugged?
Could he have a very lowZ mic element?
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2012 3:32 PM
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rbeetsme
945 posts
Dec 03, 2012
3:46 PM
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I don't turn it all the way up, but I turn it up to at least 7 and turn down the volume (gain) on the mic. It does work the tubes. If I left the mic volume all the way up, the amp would be at about 2 or 2.5, no real tone, just volume. I lent my Sonny Jr. to a very well known player to use onstage at an outdoor festival about 3 years ago. I played the next day with a group of all star jammers. When I was setting up I noticed he had set it to 12. I was walking around the park when he played and he sounded terrific. I have played with high volume set-ups ever since. I think the tone of the amp really shines by doing this.
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2012 3:47 PM
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rbeetsme
946 posts
Dec 03, 2012
3:51 PM
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BTW: What is the output of that Mission amp? If it is high (30 -50 watts) he might have needed to turn it up to get the tube distortion he wanted.
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2012 3:51 PM
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timeistight
928 posts
Dec 03, 2012
3:54 PM
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Why would you get any more distortion with the amp on 10 and the mic on 2 than you would with the mic on 10 and the amp on 2?
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2012 4:08 PM
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arnenym
92 posts
Dec 03, 2012
4:02 PM
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I think the mic is sounding best when it's cranked all way up. IMO The volume control is to turn it down a little when you not playing solo or if you standing in front of the amp and get feedback.
I'm one of those who think a volume pot steal tone from the mic and a on/off switch is best you could have on most mic's. Except the over heat mic elements. They are demanding a volume control to leak out a little strenght..
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Rick Davis
955 posts
Dec 03, 2012
4:32 PM
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JD, his mic was a JT-30 body, I don't know what was inside. Yep, he may have turned the volume all the way up after he unplugged but that would be odd. I know the guy and I'll see him again so I'll ask him about it. It was busy last night.
But it got me thinking about this general theory of cranking the amp for power tube distortion, which I don't really believe.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2012 4:37 PM
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Rick Davis
956 posts
Dec 03, 2012
4:33 PM
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rbeetsme, the Mission amp is 35 watt with a very efficient 12-inch speaker. It is quite loud. I play it at about half volume and get great gig volume and nice crunch.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
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Joe_L
2210 posts
Dec 03, 2012
5:05 PM
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When you talk to him, don't forget to let him know you thought his tone was thin. ;-)
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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LittleBubba
254 posts
Dec 03, 2012
4:57 PM
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In my ignorant experience, it depends on the volume control and the mic/amp combination. My two cheap bullet mics are totally different from each other: the bluesblaster's volume control has a completely different effect on the tone as you dial up compared to the 520DX Shure. If I'm using either of them I dial both the mic and the amp up & down before playing, to find the sweet spot for the volume we'll be playing at. I adjust later as we go.
My Shure 515 is a totally different animal than the others.
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Rick Davis
957 posts
Dec 03, 2012
5:17 PM
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Joe, I will, thanks.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
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Tuckster
1198 posts
Dec 03, 2012
5:21 PM
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There's not much sense in having a VC if you can only turn it up to 2. I like to have it at least halfway up so I have some leeway. That way I can turn up or down depending on how loud the band is playing. I'll adjust amp volume accordingly so I can do this. Depends on how hot the mic is. With a Bassman and a 585, I could turn it up to 9. But an Ultimate 57 is a lot hotter and I'm around 6 or 7. That's with an AFB+ in the chain.
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Willspear
230 posts
Dec 03, 2012
5:49 PM
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For guitar I am of the opinion that it makes some amps feel more alive and percussive.
For harp I think it's redundant. Honestly I stopped using volumes because they are too easy to screw with and feel like a crutch
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Greg Heumann
1874 posts
Dec 03, 2012
6:28 PM
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A) Turn the mic up and amp down - overdrive the preamp tubes.
B) Turn the mic down and amp up - overdrive the power tubes.
They're both valid approaches.
Depends what you want to hear. I prefer the mic up fairly loud. Plus - if you're in the "B" camp, one slip of the volume control at your mic and its feedback city.
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/Greg
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rbeetsme
948 posts
Dec 03, 2012
6:33 PM
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I agree that the mic/amp combination is the determining factor. My 2 most used mics are quite different. One is a Rod Piazza JT30 with CM99A86, the other is Shure 404 w/CM99B86. On the same amp, the Jt30 is cleaner sounding and not as loud. The Shure is nasty loud and grittier in tone.
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Joe_L
2211 posts
Dec 03, 2012
6:40 PM
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Ask yourself this question, how many pro players choose option B?
@Rick - you're welcome.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2012 6:40 PM
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CarlA
179 posts
Dec 03, 2012
6:50 PM
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Stupid question, as my amp knowledge is poor, but what would be the sound difference between option A and option B as Greg described above?
(ie: overdriving preamp tube/overdriving power tubes)
Thanks!
-Carl
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2012 6:51 PM
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rbeetsme
949 posts
Dec 03, 2012
7:36 PM
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I think it depends on the amp. My Champs are pretty nasty at any volume, they are low wattage amps, my SJ was pretty clean down low, needed to be pushed before you felt the crunch, higher wattage amp. Try making a high watt amp, like a big Marshall sound good for harp.
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Rick Davis
958 posts
Dec 03, 2012
8:32 PM
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Big harp amps seldom get to the point of overdriving the power tubes, particularly if you have the mic turned way down. I think it is a bit of a myth. I've tried it and I've not been convinced at all.
My understanding is that with fixed bias amps we are more likely to hear the phase inverter tipping into distortion, which drives the power tubes.
Joe asks a good question: Do we know any pro players who crank the amp to the max and choke down the mic? I'd like to hear that.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
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wolfkristiansen
146 posts
Dec 03, 2012
10:37 PM
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Not about harp, but when I played with Albert Collins in the late 70s, he had everything on 10-- volume, bass, treble and reverb! My memory isn't what it was, but I think it was a Silverface Super Reverb.
Whenever the reverb got away from him (started howling) he gave the whole amp a good swift kick, like a mean man kicking his dog. The amp would shift on the floor, but not tip.
I know about the settings because one summer night he walked so far out the front door of the club, into the street, that he pulled his hundred foot cord out of his amp. I leaned down and replugged him, but not before noticing his amp settings. I was amazed.
Cheers,
wolf kristiansen
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5F6H
1439 posts
Dec 04, 2012
2:18 AM
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Turning a mic way down doesn't just make it quieter, it reduces the impedance of the input circuit (softening the sound) and introduces series resistance between the element & amp's input (dulling & softening the sound again, which some folks have sought to remedy by adding a bright cap accross the mic vol).
The amp's volume control doesn't affect the impedance of the input circuit. The signal coming from the first tube stage might be 30 to 60 times what is coming out of the mic, so although there is series resistance in the amp's volume pot at low settings, you don't have to have it very high before you overcome any dulling effect on the tone. But if you turn an amp's volume control all the way up, so there is no series resistance whatsoever, you can make feedback & unwanted brightness worse...it's not necessarily a desirable situation. I'm all for having useable sweep on a volume control, but like to hit max volume by 2/3 to 3/4 of a turn (where audio pots are around the halfway point), but it doesn't bother me if I hit max volume much lower on the sweep than this.
It's swings and roundabouts.
Big stage amps typically distort most at the input stage & volume recovery stages (especially if the volume pot is isolated from the tone stack like on a tweed bassman/Blues Deville/Blues Deluxe), then distort progressively less as you get further down the amplification chain (whilst each stage amplifies, there are also factors in the circuit that cut the signal back again, often to less than it was, in terms of voltage, at the earlier stages).
A mic turned up usually hits the input with a big signal, but without any dulling, and from then on a distorted tone is sent to the later stages in the amp. A mic turned way down distorts the input stage less, but usually doesn't provide a clean, clear signal to start with.
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www.myspace.com/markburness
http://www.facebook.com/markburness
Last Edited by on Dec 04, 2012 2:58 AM
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rbeetsme
950 posts
Dec 04, 2012
5:18 AM
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What I do with my amps at home. is turn it up almost to the point of feedback, usually about 6 or 7, then turn my mic volume up about the same, on my hot mic, that's about halfway. At a club or outdoor stage, both volumes are higher. I know a lot of guys that nearly dime the amp volume. I think it's subjective.
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rbeetsme
951 posts
Dec 04, 2012
5:18 AM
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What I do with my amps at home. is turn it up almost to the point of feedback, usually about 6 or 7, then turn my mic volume up about the same, on my hot mic, that's about halfway. At a club or outdoor stage, both volumes are higher. I know a lot of guys that nearly dime the amp volume. I think it's subjective.
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rbeetsme
952 posts
Dec 04, 2012
5:18 AM
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What I do with my amps at home. is turn it up almost to the point of feedback, usually about 6 or 7, then turn my mic volume up about the same, on my hot mic, that's about halfway. At a club or outdoor stage, both volumes are higher. I know a lot of guys that nearly dime the amp volume. I think it's subjective.
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Rick Davis
962 posts
Dec 04, 2012
8:07 AM
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During sound check I get everything to maximum appropriate volume without feedback and then turn the mic and amp volume down a bit.
Mark, thanks very much for the detailed explanation.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
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