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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > Madcat - Would you play in 2nd or 3rd position?
Madcat - Would you play in 2nd or 3rd position?
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Noodles
383 posts
Nov 02, 2012
7:22 PM
Would you play this tune in 2nd position (A harp) or in 3rd position (D harp)?

Last Edited by on Nov 02, 2012 7:28 PM
timeistight
884 posts
Nov 02, 2012
8:16 PM
Probably D, but that's not 3rd. He's playing it in G, so an A harp would be 11th, a D harp would be 12th.

Seems to work okay on a C harp (2nd position).

Last Edited by on Nov 02, 2012 8:17 PM
harp-er
241 posts
Nov 02, 2012
8:18 PM
Looks to me like he's playing the lower register in 3rd.
I believe it sounds better than 2nd would.

And he does a pretty smooth job of it too, what with those draw bends down there.
timeistight
885 posts
Nov 02, 2012
8:44 PM
Just checked the comments:
The song is in the key of G, but I'm using a D harmonica, played in 12th position.

petermadcatruth

Last Edited by on Nov 02, 2012 8:47 PM
Noodles
384 posts
Nov 02, 2012
9:44 PM
I rarely am challenged by the tonic note. On this tune, sometimes E sounds like the tonic. Now that you mention it, sometimes G sounds like the tonic as well.

What's throwing me off here? - the chord progression?

Last Edited by on Nov 02, 2012 9:45 PM
timeistight
886 posts
Nov 02, 2012
10:27 PM
Probably. There are a bunch of secondary dominants that create the effect of the key slipping in the middle:

G B E E7 E
Once I lived the life of a millionaire,

Am E Am E7 Am
Spent all my money, just did not care,

C C7 G G/F# E
Took all my friends out for a mighty good time,

A7 D7
Bought bootleg whiskey, champagne and wine.

G B E E7 E
Then I began to fall so low;

Am E Am E Am
Lost all my good friends, had nowhere to go.

C C7 G G/F# E
If I get my hands on a dollar a - gain,

A7 D7
I'm gonna hang on to it till that eagle grins, 'cause


Refrain:

G B E7 Am E7 Am
No - body knows you when you're down and out;

C A7 G G/F# E7
In your pocket, not one penny;

A D
And as for friends, you don't have any.

G B E E7 E
Then when you get back on your feet a - gain

Am E Am E7 Am
Everybody wants to be your long-lost friend

C C7 G G/F# E
It's mighty strange, without any doubt

A7 D7 G
Nobody knows you when you're down and out.


Those kinds of modulations are pretty common in jazzy tunes from the 1920s, like this one.
rharley5652
666 posts
Nov 02, 2012
10:36 PM
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harp-er
243 posts
Nov 03, 2012
8:00 AM
11th position, 12th position; way beyond me at this point. I like the sound of it though. I guess one of these days I'll have to figure those out too.
Noodles
385 posts
Nov 03, 2012
8:35 AM
Timeistight -- Thanks for the explanation. I can see it more clearly now.
----

There have been threads recently on the value of learning and studying tunes. As an "ear" player with the most basic music theory background, this tune was a bit confusing. I couldn't just pick up what I heard as "the right harp" and go with it. So, for me, this is a great tune to study. I can learn new things here.

Ah yes... Old dog - New tricks.
Gnarly
373 posts
Nov 04, 2012
10:18 AM
12th shouldn't be beyond an intermediate harp player--it's just like 3rd!
I want to use a C harmonica for my example--Dm is 3rd, and it's minor, right? F is the relative major, so it has all the same notes--it's just that the tonal center is F. Try playing from C to F on holes 4 and 5. Now play draw 5, blow 6, draw 6 and blow 7.
That's your scale in the key of F! 12th position with no bends.
Granted the F root note is a double draw bend on hole 2, and you need the overblow Bb on hole 6 to play the right note for F--12th is relatively easy if you have mastered 3rd position.

Last Edited by on Nov 04, 2012 10:18 AM
dougharps
288 posts
Nov 04, 2012
12:51 PM
I always thought of this song as switching between G and the relative minor, Em, a key that some of the chords above would support and that share the same scale.

I usually have used a G chromatic to play this. If Madcat is using a D diatonic harp, then my take on it is that he is using 12th and 3rd positions to cover this song. He is really effectively working the low end bends.

Edit: I would expect the key signature on sheet music to be "G".
----------

Doug S.

Last Edited by on Nov 04, 2012 12:56 PM
Jim Rumbaugh
801 posts
Nov 04, 2012
6:42 PM
I agree, 12th position.
If you are a beginner at 12th, here's my tips.

1)I call 12th "reverse cross" grab a D for key of G, just the revese of cross

2)Use 5 draw as your root note.

3)play the same notes as 3rd position, from 4 hole up. Once you get comfortable, you can play the low end like Madcap is doing.

There's more to it, but that's enough to begin with without getting into to much detail.

----------
theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
Martin
150 posts
Nov 06, 2012
5:29 AM
Strange that nobody recommends 1 pos. It´s obvious that even Madcat, en extremely advanced player, has some intonation issues in 12th, and Noodles is, judging from his question, a bit lower on the skills rung. (Normally I find 12 pos very useful s nothing against that per se.)
Harmonica players are much more forgiving when it comes to sour notes than other instrumentalists, that´s a good thing to keep in your memory; it depends a bit on what kind of an impression you want to make, and it can be worthwhile to make a tradeoff between some drawnotes (and bending opportunities) for clean blow notes.
Also, the phrase that starts "Took all my friends out ..." gets a bit more interesting if you play it C-F#7-G etc.
Cheers,
Martin
harp-er
249 posts
Nov 06, 2012
8:32 AM
Thanks for the 12th position tips, guys. Right now I'm working my self into a frenzy of possibilities with 3rd, but as soon as I get tired of that I'm gonna try your 12th guidelines. Sounds like it shouldn't be too hard to get a feel for. I've even copied your tips and have them saved in a folder on my desktop for future reference.
I won't be violating any copyright laws will I!?
Gnarly
374 posts
Nov 06, 2012
3:56 PM
If you played this in 3rd, wouldn't you have to overblow the major third?


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