GamblersHand
59 posts
Jul 20, 2009
7:52 AM
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Now that I've found this great tuner online (thanks Kingley), I was wondering what should be the actual pitch of the "blue third", i.e. that three draw partial bend you play on the one-chord when playing cross.
Should is be roughly halfway between the minor and major thirds?
And another thing - has anyone noticed that the 2 draw full bend usually drops closer to a tone and a half? Still sounds ok to my less than perfect pitch, though
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Mgimino
34 posts
Jul 20, 2009
8:15 AM
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Adam says 10 cents sharper than the minor third like (Big Walter did) is the best blue third.
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Michael
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GermanHarpist
515 posts
Jul 20, 2009
9:37 AM
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I think Jason Ricci said that the blue third is the same as the minor third.
But then 10 cent isn't really that much.
It could be that the pitch of the blue third really depends on the kind of blues you're playing: the more "major" the blues the higher the pitch...
just a theory...
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germanharpist, harpfriends on Youtube
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kudzurunner
594 posts
Jul 20, 2009
9:41 AM
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I didn't say it was the best. I said that a smart and precise harp guy who has transcribed many of my solos ran a test and discovered that my sustained blue third was NOT, as I'd been claiming, "the quarter-tone between major and minor," but was only ten cents sharp from the minor third. He also said that my blue third and Big Walter's were exactly the same. I said I was honored to be put in any sentence like that.
The truth is, there's no one right or best way of playing the blue third. It's just important to keep in mind that when blues guitarists want to play a blue third, they start on the minor third and squeeze it slightly but noticeably upward, so that the pitch rises a little. The movement of the pitch DURING the duration of the sounding of the pitch is part of the magic. It's roughly equivalent to major league pitchers (no pun intended) who are credited by batters with having "movement" on their fastball.
The blue third is a pitch range--anywhere from slightly above the minor third to most of the way towards the major third--and a quality of pitch movement that adds a slight vocalizing edge, in some cases, to sounded notes. A "cry."
What the blue third is NOT is the minor third. Anybody who claims that it is is making a mistake. Or rather, they're offering up a Guitar 101 (or Harp 101) approximation as the truth, and missing the actual truth, which is much more challenging and interesting.
There's also a blue third that it just BELOW a minor third, tending towards the major second. The best place of hearing both sorts of blue thirds at work is in the dobro solo in the Allman Brothers' "Pony Boy."
The "blueing" that I've described can and is applied to other notes. The blue seventh, for example, is a corresponding pitch area from just above the flat seventh to just under the octave. Blues guitarists routinely milk this note. I think "Pony Boy" has a bunch of these.
But there's also a blue seventh that corresponds to the lower blue third; it's located between the major sixth and the flat seventh. It's one of T. Bone Walker's favorite notes.
And there's an equivalent but somewhat larger range in the flat fifth, ranging from just above the fourth to just below the fifth. All of that is a "blue" area, if you know how to use it.
If you want to hear a master of all these pitches, check out Clapton's solo on "Creepin'," off the recent album by the Crusaders entitled RURAL RENEWAL. Clapton has all this stuff going on. So does Bonnie Raitt in her singing. They didn't invent it, obviously; they got it from the African American masters who figured all this stuff out long ago: B.B., Freddie, and Albert King; Sippie Wallace; Bessie Smith.
Last Edited by on Jul 20, 2009 9:52 AM
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GamblersHand
60 posts
Jul 20, 2009
9:56 AM
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@Mgimino - thanks, I'd heard that mentioned somewhere, I think by Adam - it was just that, as GermanHarpist says, it ain't much. My blue thirds are closer to +30 or +40 (and wavering a lot!)
@GermanHarpist - I agree that it's certainly a sublety, but one thing I'm currently working on is to better differentiate between the "blue third" and the "full half" step bend I'd play against the IV chord (which is the VIIb note)
I could be wrong but think I heard somewhere that it's due to West African music being based on a 7-note rather than 8 note interval.
Anyway, I recommend checking out Adam's lessons #90 and #91 on YT.
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kudzurunner
595 posts
Jul 20, 2009
10:18 AM
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I'd say that the biggest problem many players have with the blue third is imprecision. They tend to bend the 3 draw below the flat 3rd rather than just above it, and they tend to let it waver BOTH above and below the flat 3rd in the course of playing one note. That's a no-no--at least if what you're trying for is audible bluesiness.
The key thing is being able to hear the pitch & effect you're trying for, which is why it's crucial both to know the theory I've outlined above and to listen to musicians who really know how to execute. Once you can hear it, it's then a question of developing enough control to sound it consistently. Then you need to learn how to actually express something with it.
And people think blues harmonica is just a bunch of tuneless wheezing on flatted-out harps?! Hah!
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kudzurunner
596 posts
Jul 20, 2009
10:23 AM
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And please note that the guy who compared me and Big Walter was talking about SUSTAINED blue thirds, like in the solo of "Have a Good Time." (bar 5) When you sustain a note, you can't possibly execute a slow-rising edge on it. But if it's a quarter-note or shorter, you can do that--and it makes a difference.
Also note that W. C. Handy was the guy who figured out that you could get some blues tonality onto the printed (sheet music) page if you represented the blue third as a minor third followed by a major third--the first two notes in "St. Louis Blues." That made it possible for piano players to play "blues," even if they knew nothing about blues. (Real blues pianists sometimes hit both the minor and major third at the same time.) To sound a minor third with the right hand when the left hand was playing a dominant seventh chord (which contained a major third) gave you a blues-sound. So Handy started talking about the minor third as a "blue note." But that was only an approximation.
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GamblersHand
61 posts
Jul 20, 2009
11:10 AM
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Adam - thanks, all great stuff.
Getting much more consistency with the 3 draw bend, and getting a (reasonably) sustained note has been the single biggest step change improvement in my blues playing over the last few years - all thanks to those YT lessons. I'm probably overusing it at the moment but hey, just can't get enough of that sound.
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GermanHarpist
520 posts
Jul 20, 2009
12:34 PM
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Some very helpful stuff there, Adam. Especially on the other blues notes available... gotta try that out right away.
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germanharpist, harpfriends on Youtube
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mickil
391 posts
Jul 20, 2009
1:13 PM
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About the piano thing. You get this sort of stuff a lot in the left hand in a boogie shuffle; the passage is on the I chord in C:
G G A A G G A A
Eb E Eb E
C C C C C C C C
1 & a 2 & a 3 & a 4 & a
The repeated A's on beats 2 and 4 are major 6ths, but the E's below them alterenate between major and minor. At speed, it's an interesting sound.
Or, you get an alternating major / minor 6th:
G G A Ab G G A Ab
C C C C C C C C
1 & a 2 & a 3 & a 4 & a
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
http://www.youtube.com/user/SlimHarpMick
Last Edited by on Jul 20, 2009 1:38 PM
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