One way is to go over the tune relentlessly with a desire to commit it to memory so that it is readily accessible, and this should also include a certain amount of processing/thinking (ex. contemplating the notes used, cues from the phrasing, etc) Repetition is important while figuring out the tune but so is thinking about the meaning and structure of the tune you're trying to learn, and tie it to things you already know about music.
In other words, keep it a deliberate practice- involving consciously analyzing the tune at hand, making necessary corrections on your weaknesses, getting feedback from recording yourself and others. Stay away from shallow processing of a tune, you want to be in thinking mode searching for answers to any questions you might have about the tune and why things work or don’t. The problem with “just memorizing” a song is that's only as good as your recollection of it. Where memorization along with knowledge of what makes the tune click requires understanding and gives the player an ability to cover the tune in a meaningfully sincere way.
There’s a difference between knowing how to do something and understanding or knowing what you are doing - coping the tune tells you how it suppose to sound but it doesn’t tell you what, when or why your doing something. So when covering a tune we want to understand the principles that make it great. True understanding of those principles will allow us to be effective when applying them giving us the tools to play the tune in a knowledgeable way.
Basically it’s the understanding of the tune you learned and the application of the knowledge you acquired by studying it that separates you from someone merely copying it and regurgitating it, thus doing it little justice, as well as not learning any pertinate, strong or enduring lesson from it for future musical endevours.
To rap it up, there's a big difference between shallow memorization or coping of a tune for the sake of saying look at what I can do at this moment, but can't repeat it 2 days later cause they forgot how it goes... And someone who worked long and hard on tearing the tune apart piece by piece, making sense of the puzzle and putting it back together in a way that is tangible, concrete and now apart of their long term musical prowess.
Last Edited by on Oct 27, 2012 11:04 AM
If you have a tune at your disposal but no sheet music, then what you wrote implies that you "transcribe" the notes you hear? Then you'd better figure out how the tune has been organized?
First a disclaimer...and that is - that ALL reasons for studying a song and mastering it to the best of your ability IS to “ reinforce and strengthen" your IMPROVISATIONAL SKILLS! It's fun and rewarding to cover a popular song, but even more so to do your own thing! And particularly when playing blues music - very,very STRONG improv abilities are mandatory!
And what I have found is that the players who have a poor repertoire of cover tunes or neglected to learn covers for whatever reasons were also the players who were the weakest improvisors, often lacking intelligent phrasing ideals with little tracking of their musical intentions leading their solos to go nowhere and their technique usage is often weak and lacking power.
So learning a tune is not an end to itself but "an exercise" in patience and perseverance to enhance your personal creativity and musical growth. The same skills that it takes to learn a cover tune is easily translated to strengthening your knowledge of scales, chords. harmony, melody, phrasing etc. So your intent is not to be a copycat, but to give you the necessary direction, confidence and insight into how to go about making your own music great.
Hi Michael...I analyze a tune note by note until it becomes a phrase...Phrases are bigger pieces of the puzzle, individual notes are smaller puzzle pieces that make up bigger puzzle pieces > 'the phrases' and the phrases strung together complete the puzzle/tune. And while I'm engaged doing that I am considering what chord the notes are associated and what is it that makes the notes/phrases so special... the timing, syncopation, technique etc.
So it is a slow process with no timeline for completion. No rushing...The whole point is to properly absorb and unlock the lessons within the tune! Inturn you not only can enjoy playing the tune with confidence now... but, the in depth and intricate work you spent learning it is a part of you and will naturally embolden your improvisational creativity. There is so much to gain from spending the time required to learn a tune - being able to play it is just the icing on the cake, the lessons learned are the TRUE rewards!
Learning covers has been one of my best sources for forcing me to learn techniques I haven't been comfortable with. I've also been surprised how many times I learned to play a tune I didn't previously like that much.. and found out that it was alotta fun to play.
Frank wrote: And what I have found is that the players who have a poor repertoire of cover tunes or neglected to learn covers for whatever reasons were also the players who were the weakest improvisors, often lacking intelligent phrasing ideals with little tracking of their musical intentions leading their solos to go nowhere and their technique usage is often weak and lacking power. ---
Frank... that's a pretty broad blanket statement - Don't you think?
I agree many can benefit from learning cover tunes. Back in the day, I learned to play by memorizing harmonica parts till I could play them more or less note for note. I took off from that, and developed my technique (and imagination) so I don't play note for note any more.
I agree with Frank that it's not enough to simply memorize a tune, you have to "understand" it too. One's (dare I say?)inborn musicality will affect the degree to which one understands the subtleties of a song.
Not sure if this is where Frank's coming from, but here are some things you'd want to think about as you listen to a harmonica song or part-- the rhythmic structure, the dynamics, the phrasing, the "mood" of the song (playful, tough, sad, etc.), the tonal coloration, the subtle variations in pitch, especially in the blue notes, the sometimes overlooked grace notes (little throwaway notes that add to the song though aren't essential), the degree to which the harmonica part supports the singer and the singer's message, the overall volume compared to the other instruments, the use of vibrato, and so on. There's lots to learn, if you really get into a song.
I don't often memorize harmonica parts any more, though I've been trying to learn sax parts on the harp. The best thing I get, now, from trying to learn others' parts is being forced to get out of my rhythmic ruts. Everybody's sense of rhythm is different; I am reminded of that every time I sit down and seriously listen (i.e. try to memorize) other musicians' horn or harp parts.
Noodles, that is what I have noticed when talking to players after hearing them play and asking them what tunes they knew...what I have gathered is the better players and improvisors had cover tunes in their pockets at their disposal- could play them off the top of their heads and also could improvise a solo on the spot creating their own rhythm and note choices.... where the weaker players and improvisors knew only bits and pieces of a tune or couldn't remember how a tune went and did not have much confidence if any to play an improvised solo or song unaccompanied. Wolf mentions how studying tunes can be a reference point for getting a hold on "rhythms" and "grooves" to get them integrated into your body and mind...excellent advice!
Last Edited by on Oct 29, 2012 4:54 PM
Frank, if I’m reading you correctly, you’re saying that to be a good improviser, one has to have a bunch of cover tunes in his/her pocket that can be drawn upon at will. Without that ability he is doomed to be a second-rate player.
What about the tons of musicians that can play a cover tune perfectly by reading sheet music – a piano player for example? Many of them can’t improvise worth a damn. My wife can play some of the most difficult pieces of Classical music on the piano. She's a very good musician. But, she plays by sight reading. She can not jam a simple blues without those little black dots. It blows her mind when I just grab a harp and play along with a tune. She doesn't have the "ear" for improvising. She can't hear it.
Youtube is full of mimic harp players. Does that mean they’re ALL good improvisers? Surely, you wouldn't think so.
No, I think learning tunes is a good discipline for learning. It's certainly more fun than just playing scales all day. You also get a sense of accomplishment by leaning a tune. There's a beginning, a middle and an end. You get into the groove-so to speak. If you’re going to play in a band, you need those tunes. But there’s more to improvising. Improvising requires knowing your instrument to the point where you can play what you’re hearing in your mind and doing it on the fly-without a lot of thought. You feel it. And, hearing the music within you is a matter of practice, a good ear and talent. And, although some understanding of music theory may not be absolutely mandatory, it does speed things up.
Last Edited by on Oct 29, 2012 8:58 PM
This is an interesting subject for me. I think both Frank and Noodles have good points. For me, when I was first starting out, learning other peoples tunes was an invaluable exercise. It taught me about phrasing, dynamics, forced me to practice new techniques, helped massively in understanding the blues scale and how to use it, it gave me a sense of which notes created what tension against which chords. And also gives you something to play – for fun, to your friends etc.
Probably most importantly for me it developed muscle memory and gave me a set of patterns to use as a base for improving – by this I mean I learned to how to move around the harmonica in meaningful ways, stringing certain notes together to create certain moods etc. (I hope this makes sense).
However, after a while my focus shifted to working more on improvisation. I took what I had learned from these songs, looked at the blues scale and pentatonic scales and practiced against backing tracks. Trying to develop what my thing might be.
These days I can't really remember any of the tunes I learned back then. I don't really learn new tunes these days either. Which means I don't have any tunes in my back pocket. I do however work with a couple of bands, and I do work on parts for songs which I remember, however these are more of a base and I rarely play them exactly the same every time. I think it's important there there is enough room in the licks and riffs to move around depending on the current mood of the band, or general feeling at the time.
So I guess what I think is that it's important to learn others tunes as a learning exercise, it develops vital techniques, however I don't think it is the case that if you don't have a bunch of tunes i your back pocket you are not going to be any good at improvising.
we can all agree, the progress derived from repetition is priceless, for many many reasons... It struck me, after reading all of your, truly wonderful, experiences. WOw! deep stuff...all good. For me, i have seen a noticeable improvement in my breathing. Copying tunes from front to back, in and out, automatically shows you how to breath, too...cool. For years as a Beginner, it was the understanding of the concept, and alot of faith, that told me I would "get it" someday. Because, for the life of me, I had a problem really doing it physically. It was clear I possessed great passion for the instrument. And was only a matter of time, given the proper steps, to achieve mastery. It was the lack of knowledge, that kept me in the dark for years. It wasn't until I had a few sets worth of note for note material, I began to actually play from my center(tan tien)..or diaphragm... Though, still fleeting...at best. I am now working on levitating in the key of Zb... good nite...
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Why is it that we all just can't get along?<
Last Edited by on Oct 30, 2012 4:14 AM
Noodles Good morning...first It's important to reiterate that were talkin blues playing here not classical...So it's perfectly understanding why your wife has missed the boat on establishing strong improvisational skills. Another point is this, Like Classical, Blues harmonica is also difficult to do well and can become very hard when one really decides to dig in and cut through the bullshit..
As far as mimics go, I have already addressed that stating it is a short lived adventure and is only as good as their recall skills... I've also stated, it is the meditative "studying" of a tune that the better players capitalize on and then use that learning experience to their advantage for freeing up their improvisational imagination. If mindless mimicking is as far as a player takes their playing- then they will be a shadow of the player who spends quality time throughout the years digging into what makes certain tunes great.
In regards to needing to know "a bunch of cover tunes", no where in my writings did I mention that...I will add that the player who spends quality time (not rushing) learning the mysteries of just "one" tune, even it it takes years to figure it out and master it to the best of their abilities, they will be much further ahead then the player who is sporadic, unfocused and undisciplined in trying to learn blues harmonica.
So it ain't the quantity of tunes to know it is the QUALITY - if it is only 3 tunes that someone has mastered by doing the hard work of understanding what makes the tune great, the dividends will be great towards their improvisational creativity. Again if mimicry is the be all end all to the player then their rewards reaped will be void of improvisational inspiration because they did not seek to understand the inner workings of what makes the tune special.
As far as learning tunes and then forgetting them like Baker mentioned he did...the more one has only mimicked a tune (not caring or concerned with all aspects of the tune) the chances get better it will be long forgotten rather quickly once you take it out of their repertoire...in other words the less intimate you are with a song the easier it is for it to have 'no lasting' impact on you.
Where the tunes you truly dug into and figured out what made them special, even if you hadn't played them in years they would still be accessible - sure you'll be rusty with them, but like an old friend you can get back to square one rather quickly because you built a relationship with the tune based on meaningful substance not superficial practice and playing.
I believe that the better players will make it a point to keep some covers in their pocket...That doesn't mean the player who doesn't is not a good or great harmonica player, there are "always exceptions to the rule"... but there is a reason that there is a player that will always be better than we are, and I have discovered the ones who spent time uncovering what makes a cover great and continues to hone them and try to zero in on the lessons within them over the years have a leg up on the average ho-hum player...
And if it's any consolation to folks out there in this great vast harmonica ocean...I am a very small fish swimming around and surely am considered less than average in my skills when measured against the tremendously talented blues harp players around the world.
So, I mean no offence when I speak of the average or weaker or ho-hum player...Trust me, I understand that it is all relative and in many circles I am going to be on the LOW end of the pecking order and just another face in the crowd!
Last Edited by on Oct 30, 2012 7:27 AM
learn the blues language then mabey you might be able to sing a song... also, ray charles sounded like a few other players before he found his own voice,nothing bad about copying good players to further your experience...baby`s learn to talk from listening to mom and dad...
Last Edited by on Nov 01, 2012 7:06 AM
Do you agree with the 3d § Wolfchris's response, that's seem to be good summerized, BUT only refers to the complex feelings we can have about a tune, just listening to it and then trying to analyze it. Now you speak about "lessons": are these lessons from outer, or lessons that you consider yourself as a rule,e.g. -and yet asked- do you possibly transcribe the music you hear, as beeing a part of your own rules? And if yes, what are for exemple the good questions to ask, this time to analyze a MUSIC and not feelings? I'm not stressing you, I' just trying to estimate my own lacks and huge gaps from a real work...
No argument here,Frank. Just be careful not to get too obsessed with copying. You and I both know a player who is fantastic at copying the masters. He does an uncanny job down to the tiniest nuances.But give him something outside that"comfort zone" and he's lost.
Noodles mentioned that his wife "doesn't have the "ear" for improvising. She can't hear it." I really believe that there are two things involved with that. From my experience, many classical players never attempt improvisation, it's generally not encouraged in their training, even though if they want to be a composer, it would be absolutely necessary. So with this training they become totally reliant on the sheet music/structure. Then there is another aspect of it which is personality. Some folks fear the instability of improv as it is basically working without a net. Improvisation is a skill that requires practice like anything else. A friend of mine who like Nooodle's wife marvelled at my ability {on guitar} to pick up a melody/chords of a song by ear and improvise. She asked me how i do it and i asked her, "do you ever just PLAY AROUND with your piano? Or pick out a song by ear?" Her answer, "Oh hell no! I couldn't do that, I wouldn't know what to play." Picking things up by ear is also a an acquired skill that requires practice. I do think that learning lots of covers {accurately, in detail}, has been massively helpful to my guitar and harp playing. It gives me a diverse vocabulary and as someone mentioned, forces me to learn new things I might not have otherwise learned.
I often jam with my brand new students. Invariably, those who have only read music previously are very intimidated and play timidly. Those who have never played anything or have improvised before let it all hang out. I propose a new method of teaching, where all reading teachers must include some improv from the first lesson. Make it so!
I have read this great thread with interest i find that i learn a tune and after a while i change and add to it without thinking! allso when improvising do we not use frases and riffs we have learned from the greats over the years!!! i know i do without thinking......someone once said i just stick it in my mouth and play.
Laurent...Yes, “ INTENTIONAL LISTENING” is paramount for honing in on what is really going on in a tune, and if you can't hear it or visualize what you're hearing in your minds eye – to then play it isn't going to happen... because your not able to zero in on the facts and discern any purposeful information from what you heard...
Some players like to know where the notes are on a harmonica and how they relate to the music their making...They like to not only to HEAR what is happening but also enjoy KNOWING what it is that they are hearing. Other players can care less about how the notes layout on a harp, and get to know their way around it by trial and error through way of their ears.
For example I picture the C harmonica in my mind when I'm in learning mode...So if I heard a really fast riff , using my ears and listening to it again and again – I would think to myself - I believe I HEAR him doing a fast glissendo on the D, G. B. D, F, and then warbling the D and F....And of course I know that the corresponding holes for those notes are 1,2,3,4 and 5 draw respectively...What chord the notes make up etc.
And there are players who aren't interested in what I just described and after they heard that really fast riff would say to themselves, I can hear that riff is happening somewhere in this specific area on the harp and it sounds like he is doing this and they would try to find the riff only according to what they heard, without regard for what notes they were or any concern for how they correlate in relation to each other.
I know players who play great harmonica coming from both camps...So the bottom line is - “INTENTIONAL LISTENING” is something both types of learners do in order to embellish their improvisational confidence. And when it comes time to improvise we all want to stay out of our own way by thinking too much, if at all and just let what music naturally wants to present itself flow from our hearts and souls and hopefully have the skills to keep it logical and rhythmically and/or melodically powerful.
Tuckster...the whole thread is basically laying out a reason NOT to be a copycat. And I have no clue what harp player you're talking about - you can e-mail his name or mention it here?
Last Edited by on Nov 02, 2012 7:53 AM
I won't say his name here. If I ever run into you in person I'll tell you. I don't want to be too negative about him. He's a far better player than me. It's more like- he's so darn good,but it's a shame he can't break out of the copying box. A few years back,the band booked a gig,but I was out of town on vacation. I suggested they get this guy to sit in for me. They did,but said they were glad to have me when I got back. This guy can play circles around me,but he's very inflexible. Whereas I just go with the flow,he has to have it played just so or he gets all screwed up.
I've played occasionally over the years with a guitarist who is a gigging cover artist. He's one of those gifted guys who can hear a tune for the first time and then turn around and play it, nearly note for note. BUT, if he's got it wrong somewhere, there's no freaking way you can convince him of it... except on rare occasions. I love playing with him, but you gotta be ready for a little argument every once in a while.
Bouncing on what Frank wrote, I'm currently working on the titel "Routes" from the same name's cd by JJ Milteau. Playing the notes is not difficult. Playing on the rhythm is less easy. But playing all the nuances will take the broadest part of my time...and I'm not sure to succeed in. Sure that a shallow listening would come to no good.
Hi Laurent...your statement > "But playing all the nuances will take the broadest part of my time" -is a very true one indeed.
And the reason that will be is because the nuances are almost impossible to rush into existence. They will only present themselves clearly to you as you continue to be curious about what it is exactly that makes you love the song so much that you desire to spend as much "quality" time with as it takes to fully experience the wonderful pleasures of playing it in all its glory.
If you are not in a hurry to master it and just let Father time tick by with no reference to a timeline of completion - one unexpected day you will realize you accomplished what you set out to do! You will succeed if you don't give in to rushing, mediocrity and a timeline for the learning experience!
Last Edited by on Nov 03, 2012 12:58 PM
Term clarification please. Do you mean learing licks? Aping another player to learn from thier style and technique? That's not nec. the same thing as playing a 'cover tune' - which is any song that's not your original. Playing a 'cover' doesn't mean you have to play it the exact same way the original was played. I play lots of 'covers' but don't care to sound like the original version. Wether it was done by a harp player or not. (the Thrill is Gone ie.) I also do at times, work on learning other guys licks - as a way to build my technique and add to my 'bank' of usable phrasing, licks, and ideas that will hopefully influence my own improvosations in the future. ----------
Last Edited by on Nov 03, 2012 3:36 PM
I’m referring to getting into the meat and potatoes of a tune for the sake of discovering the secrets of its emotional content…what it is that is adding flesh and internal organs to the skeleton of the naked notes. Wanting to uncover the passion in the nuances of the phrasings and trying to figure out the life force of the tune.
The intent being to give us the insights into what it will take to make our own style of playing come ALIVE! What we are setting out to accomplish is NOT to use somebody else’s licks or riffs when we improvise, but to use the lessons and ideals we learned from our studies to give us the confidence to choose our own notes, and embrace the SPIRIT of the players we studied to guide and help us to add meaning and excitement to our own style of playing.
Last Edited by on Nov 04, 2012 9:16 AM
For example in "Routes"...two innocent notes...but the first is performed loud with a sharp attack, the second is played softly, gently, with a double-stop and a vibrato... Elsewhere in the tune, there are eight notes fast played but crescendo in the loudness. No, it's definitely not the same as learning riffs!
one of my goals is to be able to play everything i hear in my head... i can hear most cover tunes in my head pretty well (or so i think), i can certainly hum along better than i can play... so playing covers really helps me put something solid on that learning process.
other than the obvious limitations of the diatonic harp for those that do not have the technique to play every chromatic note well (a limitation of technique for most players in addition to translation from brain to note) can you pick out any melody you want on harmonica? that seems to be a pretty good goal as a player.
hell, it certainly can't hurt!
Last Edited by on Nov 04, 2012 6:37 PM
