sopwithcamels266
161 posts
Jul 02, 2009
3:08 AM
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Ok guys as we all know blues can sit on the edge of folk festivals much to a lot of the folky types displeasure.
It can sit on the edge of Jazz festivals much to a lot of jazzers displeasure.
Now funding is available for festivals right, (hang in there )
Outside these areas and out side the normal run of mill van and gear hammerimg ran the countryside going from set blues joint to the next infront of the converted etc working through a promotor.(It can be soul destroying for some after a while)
Next there are players like me local pros who now and again bring in overseas players usually on singles to play a series of dates with me and others.Usually done the jazz route and can qualify for funding to facilitate costs.
Now I say to myself could I do something similar on the blues front. You see I argue that you can but others would argue it's not an art form in that way.
Now you bring a non famous name in whos known in very small circles within the blues you have to jump through the right hoops and sometimes youv'e got to get by 2 or 3, sometimes a whole panel you are up against.
Regarding loops ha ha.(One of the top jazz players in the world came in to demo this idea as a one man show a few years ago but But the sponser turned out to be THE ELECTRONICS company making all the gear linked to special computers.
Years later the guy admitted that it was a experiment at the time it's not art in that way, it can't be.
So I say to myself we are all on this forum to learn right
including me, just like everyone else.So my guess is that guys learning must be attending lots of gigs.
So let me see if they can see that the blues is a true artform,because if the very people who dig this stuff either don't get it or dismiss it then Iv'e little chance of convincing a panel of basically art and musician enthusiasts from various bodies.
You see even in the jazz world to get the money jumping through the right hoops you can end up composing and delivering music that really you don't want to and to a type of audience you don't want to.
Ironically the best debatable arguemnt came from Buddha with his own demonstration which was good I could use that,
however the irony is I could bring Buddha in anyway as a jazz player but that is not what i am aiming at.
That is why I am trying to get feed back of an interesting nature on the loop thread.
Last Edited by on Jul 02, 2009 4:00 AM
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sopwithcamels266
162 posts
Jul 02, 2009
3:21 AM
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Further to this topic once it has been done I could probably do it every a year no problem.Others can then follow.It works for me because I just bring who I like.
The blues brothers film had it spot on.You have to go and get the audience.
For example I bring a non name in being local on my gig yea we get them a good audeience, next may be a college gig youth etc then you got to cover 2 more gigs say with a capacity audience. So this all has to be done within a 20 to 30 mile radius.
(This lot on the blues circuit thing in the van etc blues joint to blues that is fine) but my argument is that isn't developing the art form in the way that it should. To create developing music it has to develop movements,from a central point.
You see it's about creation.You have to make it happen
SO I see blues as a moving art form in the present.
Last Edited by on Jul 02, 2009 4:01 AM
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The Gloth
124 posts
Jul 02, 2009
5:13 AM
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"Next there are players like me local pros who now and again bring in overseas players usually on singles to play a series of dates with me and others.Usually done the jazz route and can qualify for funding to facilitate costs.
Now I say to myself could I do something similar on the blues front. You see I argue that you can but others would argue it's not an art form in that way."
I really don't understand what you mean by that. Is that some people would say "It's not real blues because some of the musicians coming from abroad" ? I don't get it.
On the question of art, I think it's wrong to say that "blues is an art form". MUSIC is an art form. Blues is a form of music.
About your second post, I really don't know what you're talking about. Maybe I don't master enough english langage. But I'm not sure the blues needs "movements" to evolve. Each musician is unique, I prefer a bluesman who plays the blues in his own way than someone playing "in the style of (someone/somewhere/sometime...).
Plus, maybe it wasn't the case in old days, but now you see "movements" in music are mostly fabricated by the record companies as an easier way to promote and sell. For example, see the "grunge" movement, it never existed until it was advertised in the mass media as something real.
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sopwithcamels266
164 posts
Jul 02, 2009
5:54 AM
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TheGloth:No disrespect intended here but your post is a case in point of everything I have been attempting to explain.
OK no more posting neccessary for me.Let others see it for what it is.
Last Edited by on Jul 02, 2009 5:57 AM
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Oliver
69 posts
Jul 02, 2009
6:25 AM
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Someone needs to tell sopwith to put down the crack pipe, so it might as well be me. :)
Last Edited by on Jul 02, 2009 6:32 AM
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sopwithcamels266
165 posts
Jul 02, 2009
7:14 AM
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Gloth correction one last post
Glothquote=your quote =On the question of art, I think it's wrong to say that "blues is an art form". MUSIC is an art form. Blues is a form of music.
Well that has said it all let me give you one last important thing. BLUES is one of the few REAL comtempory Art forms to come out of the USA.FACT
Here am I a jazz player on modern blues harmonica site defending the origin and development of blues.
Oliver:I realise I am waisting my time.
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scstrickland
106 posts
Jul 02, 2009
7:24 AM
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Absolutely no disrespect meant to you Sop, but I have a hard time understanding your writing. For instance:
"Outside these areas and out side the normal run of mill van and gear hammerimg ran the countryside going from set blues joint to the next infront of the converted etc working through a promotor."
Maybe its just me, but I don't have any idea what this means. I really don't like to criticize others writing, as I have enough trouble writing myself but I often feel that I have to decipher your meaning.
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The Gloth
126 posts
Jul 02, 2009
7:34 AM
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Thanks Scstrickland, this reassure me ! I'm not the only one that finds it hard to understand.
"Well that has said it all let me give you one last important thing. BLUES is one of the few REAL comtempory Art forms to come out of the USA.FACT"
The roots of blues have to be found in West-African music and in European traditional music. That's another FACT.
But anyway, let's say blues is American born : does that mean the only real blues is American ? No bluesmen outside USA ? Same for jazz, then ? I still don't know if that's what you're trying to say, but I can't agree with that. Art has no frontiers.
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Kingley
169 posts
Jul 02, 2009
7:47 AM
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If I understand him correctly it sounds to me like SOP is saying that he can occasionally bring Jazz musicians into this country to do gigs and get funding for it through the Arts Council grants system.
He would like to see if he can do the same for Blues musicians, but the problem is that the Arts Council do not classify Blues music as an art form in the same way they do Jazz.
If he could convince them that it is indeed a valid art form that meets the criteria that they have set. Then he may have a chance to realise his dream of bringing the Blues musicians over here to the UK and be able to pay them decent money via the grants system. This would also allow him to be able to get more reputable venues to allow the acts to perform as all the gigs would be backed by the Arts Council.
The situation currently is that when Blues players come to this country they have to try and arrange some low paid gigs as a supplement to the main gigs to try and improve their income from the tour. This puts a lot of people off touring in the UK, as sometimes it's just not worth it financially, unless they can get the "filler gigs".
Whereas if the Arts Council backed the gigs the revenue to the artist would probably be much higher. So it could negate the need for them to have to book "filler gigs" just to survive financially. Therefore making touring the UK much more appealing.
At least that's what I think he's trying to say! :)
Last Edited by on Jul 02, 2009 7:57 AM
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sopwithcamels266
166 posts
Jul 02, 2009
8:27 AM
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Kingley: Excellent post.
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The Gloth
127 posts
Jul 02, 2009
9:20 AM
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Ok, put that way it makes sense.
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Kingley
173 posts
Jul 02, 2009
10:56 AM
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What really gets my goat though is that the Arts Council refuse to see Blues as an "Art Form" although it's blatantly obvious to anybody with a brain cell that any musical form is "Art".
The classification of Jazz and "Classical" music as "Art Forms" is a nonsense classification that was decided by a bunch of supercilious , self absorbed, so called "educated" fools. Who believe that elitism and segregation is the answer to everything.
They believe that everything should fit into nice little boxes and that if you fit into "Box A" then you're a highly educated respectable individual.
However if you fit into "Box B" then you are a person of lower intelligence and therefore cannot be allowed to be "above your station" and need to be informed as to what is "correct and proper".
All that this kind of attitude does is to perpetuate the belief that one person is better than another. It's a social attitude that needs to be extinguished. The continuation of this kind of mentality is unfortunately condoned as ok and "the done thing" by the media, the law system and the educational systems of the UK.
What really peeves me though even more than that mindset, is when they decide every once in a blue moon to have a token "dummy" to parade around their circles just to reassure themselves that they are progressive, forward thinking individuals who are making the world a better place.
I spent the first eighteen years of my life growing up in Oxford, England and much of that time was spent around the inner sanctums of the of the universities, because my grandfather was the Bursar at Jesus College. I saw and experienced the mentality of those people first hand and have nothing but sheer contempt for their mindless bigotry and self inflated egos.
Those people are the kind of people that confirm the description by other people of "pretentious art bollocks".
Blues music as far as they are concerned is firmly in "Box B" and will never be allowed to move from there!
Of course I am only applying this to the UK.
I can't speak for the situation in other countries as I have no experience of their social and educational systems.
I also realise that not all of the "system" is like this. But unfortunately the fact is that of those who make "the decisions", the majority appear to have that elitist compartmentalised mentality.
Sorry if I'm ranting but it just makes me so angry.
Last Edited by on Jul 02, 2009 11:54 AM
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