SuperBee
622 posts
Oct 14, 2012
5:32 AM
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I've tried mine a couple of times now. Interested in other folks experiences. Personally I'm not sure mine does anything at all other than mess with my sound when I'm playing softly. I didn't really have a problem with feedback but thought I may be able to turn up a bit more with this connected. Doesn't seem to be the case.
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Rick Davis
811 posts
Oct 14, 2012
10:16 AM
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I'd like to hear more about this as well.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
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timeistight
860 posts
Oct 14, 2012
3:02 PM
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"Personally I'm not sure mine does anything at all other than mess with my sound when I'm playing softly."
How do you set the threshold control? What kind of mic are you using it with? Do you use a volume control? Anything else in your signal chain?
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SuperBee
624 posts
Oct 14, 2012
4:08 PM
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Using it with a CM mic. Mic has a BMA in line VC. Using a LW octave, between gate and amp, and delay in effects loop, i.e. between preamp and power amp.
The harp shield just makes it a bit harder to know what my amp is doing. When the stage is loud it just opens the path anyway. I've tried it over the full range of sensitivity. If I could turn it off easily it would be simpler to work out what effect it was having. I thought turning the sensitivity full CCW may do that but when I played really softly, as in decay, it would reach a point where it was cutting the sound off so it was still in play at that setting.
I'm just trying to get my head around it. Normally, if my amp is feeding back I just adjust my volume until it stops and I know where I am. With this pedal opening and closing the signal path it's not so easy to find that point quickly. And then I wonder, well what's it doing anyway. I'm just struggling to work out how it's supposed to help. I thought I understood but I confess I'm puzzled.
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MrVerylongusername
2427 posts
Oct 14, 2012
4:17 PM
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A gate should always be last in the signal path - or at least after anything that adds gain. The octave adds gain.
Last Edited by on Oct 14, 2012 4:23 PM
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timeistight
861 posts
Oct 14, 2012
4:48 PM
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"When the stage is loud it just opens the path anyway."
You mean that the rest of the band is so loud that the bleed through your mic is enough to open the gate? That can't be good, whether or not you're using the gate. Maybe you need to be further away from the amps and drums.
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SuperBee
625 posts
Oct 14, 2012
4:55 PM
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Interesting Mr VL. I set mine up the way I have because that was how it seemed JR had his set up on the demo he posted. I'll turn it around and see if I get better results.
EDIT: ha, just read on the LW site "the pedal should go last in your pedal chain". I didn't see that before. Can't swear it wasn't, because the impression I had from Jason's demo was very strong that he was using it first. Oh well, I'll give it another try.
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Last Edited by on Oct 14, 2012 6:44 PM
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SuperBee
626 posts
Oct 14, 2012
5:05 PM
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Yes, TITight, that's right. This has been in our practice space, and I am surrounded by monitors, loud drums and bass, plus a mandolin that was feeding back constantly with the player seemingly oblivious or uncaring. So maybe less than fair test of the poor HS.
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Rick Davis
813 posts
Oct 14, 2012
5:07 PM
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Superbee, didn't the pedal come with instructions from LW?
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
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SuperBee
627 posts
Oct 14, 2012
6:07 PM
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No, I don't think it did Rick. Or nothing beyond the very basic. Nothing which left an impression anyway. I'm an avid reader of instructions, and I don't remember anything I didn't already know. Like turn the knob to increase the threshold, step on the buton to reset, use a 9 volt battery etc.
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Noodles
359 posts
Oct 14, 2012
7:22 PM
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Have you reviewed the product overview and INFO SHEET (PDF download) on
the Harp Shield web page?
Last Edited by on Oct 14, 2012 7:25 PM
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SuperBee
628 posts
Oct 14, 2012
8:27 PM
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Yes Noodles I most certainly did. I went there again recently. As I stated above, I'm an avid reader of that sort of information.
I think that page has recently been updated, to add an instruction to put the gate last in the chain. Either that or I missed it somehow before. I was an "early adopter", I ordered the same day the pedal was advertised on the site.
(EDIT: yes, the PDF does not contain the instruction to put it last in chain. Info on site has been updated since I previously read it.)
Anyway, I just tried it with my 5w Legacy head and 2x8" weber cab.
I put the octave ahead of the gate, also tried the harp break ahead of the gate. And put my delay after the gate. And then I cranked it to feedback. Jammed in G, big Walters have a good time, a fast flowing piece, and also a bunch of boogie riffs, like billy boy might play in I wish you would. More staccato stuff, shorter lines.
Yeah ok, this thing does have a positive impact in that config. With This little amp it's kind of academic because I have to push it way past the sweet spot to get feedback problems anyway, but it demonstrated the pedal ok.
I did note my delay still functioned well.
So Thursday night I'll try it again in the noisy room.
It doesn't seem to be a huge impact but I feel there may be some benefit. Certainly better than before.
Thanks all; I'm still v interested to hear from other users.
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Last Edited by on Oct 14, 2012 8:39 PM
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Tblues1
25 posts
Oct 15, 2012
5:22 AM
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Works as advertised. No effect on tone, if you don't turn it up too much.
I turn it to about 10 or 11 o'clock positon.
It's enough to take the edge off when close to that "edgy" zone.
Works just fine with it first in line.
Mic to Harp Shield to V2 Delay to Harp Octave to amp.Without the Harp Shield, it's a little more edgy.
No Holy grail for fighting feedback, but it definitely helps when you get put in a situation where you have to play that loud.
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SuperBee
630 posts
Oct 15, 2012
5:40 AM
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Using it tonight I note the delay effect is not affected the way I had it set up; mic, octave, shield, delay, amp. But my decaying vibrato is. Even with the sensitivity wound right back. Probably not a big deal in any situation where I'm so loud that I'm having feed back issues.
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Tblues1
26 posts
Oct 15, 2012
6:21 AM
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Used it on a gig Saturday night with a loud aggressive band. I wound up having to play close to and kind of close to my amp with volume levels set fairly high in order to compete. Amp was not mic'ed.
Set was as noted previously. Octave settings were effect @ 1 o'clock, Level @ about 3 o'clock, at the highest point in the evening. No feedback tendancy noted. HS @11 o'clock. No noticeable effect on tone, vibrato, or anything else. It seems to to work for me that way, so at this point I'm not inclined to "fix" what isn't broke. Doesn't necessarily mean everyone els might want that setup. The amp I used can be a little bit touchy, anyway when pushed to the max like that, but it worked out well.
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MrVerylongusername
2428 posts
Oct 15, 2012
6:35 AM
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A gate is the opposite of a compressor. A guitarist would use a gate to control hiss from noisy pickups - when playing, the guitar's sound masks the hiss, but when not playing the gate "turns the volume down". That's a very different situation to controlling feedback so you have to think about what the box is actually doing to your signal to work out where best to put it. Now I'm basing this comment on bog standard gates - I don't know if the LW has other tricks up it's sleeve (other than impedance buffering).
If the signal is above the threshold, the gate is open and the whole signal passes - and if the conditions are right you'll get feedback.
If it's below the threshold the gate is closed - no signal at all
Some gates let you adjust the response time - i.e. how long the gate takes to shut - that can help you make it a little less obvious.
If your band's stage levels are above the threshold, the gate is pointless - it will always be open.
Playing is often enough to break the feedback loop, but if your gain is high enough to create feedback when you are actually playing a gate won't help.
Effects with a 'tail' like reverbs and delay are going to be effected by a gate: as the effected signal decays, the tails get chopped off. Gated reverb is sometimes used on drums, but it's not really an effect that would sound good with harp - so time based effects (delay & reverb) are best post gate and best of all in an effects loop (as per your original config).
You mentioned Jason's video - he's using an Ultimate 57 which like most stick mics has a cardioid polar pattern giving it a degree of off-axis rejection (directional response) and more feedback resistance when in free air (i.e. not cupped for playing). A CM on the other hand is always omnidirectional and therefore more prone to feedback - in fact MORE SO when not cupped. I think that's the big difference between your setup and Jason's. Bear in mind in video I saw he's also got a lot of compression going on after the gate, compressing the signal can also reduce the feedback potential (but not transparently).
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SuperBee
631 posts
Oct 15, 2012
12:09 PM
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Thanks VL, that's pretty much where logic was taking me. I think this pedal may be of some value but maybe not enough to warrant spending money on batteries for it. It was definitely less trouble with the octave in front of it.
I think my probs are just about the band. I've got a very loud 410 amp, which is able to work many rooms unmic-ed. they are so loud at times, in the shed that I just can't keep them out of my signal, with the gate fully CW the surrounding noise will still open it. So just turning my mic volume down when not playing works better than noise gate.
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7LimitJI
674 posts
Oct 15, 2012
12:17 PM
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Just had a quick blast through the Harp Shield and my Kendrick Bassman using a Shure CM element.
I set the amp with just the mic to find the feedback point. It was 6 on the vol.
Plugged the LW in :-
No effect on tone.This was very important to me !
Even with the sensitivity at its lowest I can put the amp to 8 with no feedback and no noticeable loss at the front or tail of the notes.
This is loud!!! Glad I put my earplugs in!!
You can put the mic right in front of the amp with no feedback, yes right in front of the amp !
I can turn the amp up more, but it feeds back when you play, especially chromatics. Probably due to the un-cupped open ends of the 64.
Turning the sensitivity up gives a more volume, works with tightly cupped diatonics, but feeds back with chromatics.
When it did feed back,it ceased as soon as I stopped playing and un-cupped the mic.
Initial reaction is that it works to give more volume, with absolutely no effect on tone.
Got a gig in 2 weeks and looking fwd to trying it.
It will give me more head room, and reckon I won't have to keep turning down the vol on the mic when I'm not playing.
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The Pentatonics Reverbnation
Youtube
"Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out".
"It's music,not just complicated noise".
Last Edited by on Oct 15, 2012 12:20 PM
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Rick Davis
818 posts
Oct 15, 2012
12:41 PM
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7Limit - The performance may be a LOT different in a live setting than it was in your living room. It would be cool if you could post a video of the gig you have coming up.
I've tried several noise gates with harp and didn't really like any of them, although some were better than others. They were notchy and intrusive, and getting the settings just right in a live gig was like trying to hit a moving target.
(I may have to just order one from LW and test it...)
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
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MrVerylongusername
2429 posts
Oct 15, 2012
5:43 PM
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"You can put the mic right in front of the amp with no feedback, yes right in front of the amp !"
because before you got it in front of the amp the gate closed because the mic was passing only background noise. For all intents and purposes the mic is switched off.
Try it again and tap the grill of your mic
*hint* you might want to fit earplugs first
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SuperBee
637 posts
Oct 17, 2012
5:44 PM
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Gee whiz, the thing is that my band is so loud, the shield is next to useless. It's pretty much always open so there is no benefit to be had. The most effective measure I have is my VC.
Last night I used all my pedals and the PA. it's mainly the way the shed is set up, but feedback was much worse than with my amp.
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Rick Davis
821 posts
Oct 17, 2012
9:47 PM
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I have the Kinder AFB+ pedal which I purchased 2nd hand from a forum member. I've had it for several months and I've gigged it many times. My band is loud, but that has no affect on the AFB pedal. It works the same no matter what the stage volume is. It allows my Bassman RI to get brutally loud before feedback.
I've tried most of the anti-feedback devices and I'm convinced the AFB+ pedal works best. I'm basically a skeptical guy but I am happy with it. It has its limits but does the job well.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
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SuperBee
639 posts
Oct 18, 2012
1:47 AM
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As I understand the kinder, it's like an eq. But maybe that's wrong?
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Willspear
211 posts
Oct 18, 2012
2:12 AM
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Not at all like an eq
3 knobs
Left cuts some feedback
Middle syncs the Mics output to the optimum level for the pedal
Righ knob cuts feedback pretty readily
The thing is it works like a filter so the more you turn knobs the more it rips chunks of your sound out. Good to a point but after 3 o'clock on the knob the signal really takes a beating.
The pedal adds a bit of clip to the amp
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Rick Davis
823 posts
Oct 18, 2012
8:18 AM
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Willspear, if you go overboard with the settings the AFB pedal sounds pinched or nasal. But I never need to have any of the knobs at 3 o'clock.
The pedal can add a tiny bit of grit to your sound, which I find pleasing.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
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SuperBee
641 posts
Oct 18, 2012
11:35 AM
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Rick, I think I am gonna be sending my Harp Shield back. I can't see a situation where it will be of any use to me. Maybe it would help if I was just sitting at the edge of my adjustment, but my amp is quite loud and if i have it up that loud it means the ambient sound level is too loud fof the harp shield to be working anyway. When volumes are lower I don't have a feedback problem. So this thing I just don't think is ever gonna be useful with my amp. Maybe with a lower power amp that was struggling at lower levels. I dunno. I just don't really see how it's supposed to help anyway, really. I think a good VC trumps it.
My verdict is that its a waste of money, but I have a lot of respect for randy and others who have said they found if useful, so maybe I just don't understand.
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SuperBee
647 posts
Oct 19, 2012
10:58 PM
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Thats 2 people who think its good. anyone else?
7limitj, you are getting an effect which allows you to actually turn up and play louder? I don't get that at all. I just get the noise gate effect. Absolutely zero effect on how loud I can turn up.
Maybe I just have a bad one?
I just tested it with a 5 watt amp in my bedroom with no extraneous noise. no impact whatsoever on the point at which feedback begins. I'll send it back on Monday. I'm glad it works for you folk, I reckon I just got a slightly faulty one. It can happen.
Thanks sincerely for your success stories. You have really helped.
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timeistight
871 posts
Oct 20, 2012
8:47 AM
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I don't think yours is faulty. From the Lone Wolf Blues website:Audio signals from the amplifier’s speaker are picked up by the microphone and fed back into the amplifier where it is amplified again resulting in what we know as feedback; the Harp Shield will prevent this process from ever starting by using noise gate technology. The Harp Shield is designed to mute the microphone when you are not playing by decoupling the microphone from the amplifier, thus preventing feedback. With the Harp Shield your microphone is muted when not playing and as you begin to play, the Harp Shield will unmute and allow your signal to pass through to the amp; when you stop playing, the pedal automatically mutes the microphone to prevent feedback. The pedal has a sensitivity control to prevent background noises from opening the audio path and inducing feedback. In the event that feedback does occur, just press the footswitch (a momentary switch) to reset the pedal and stop the feedback. When using this pedal, it is still necessary to use proper microphone handling techniques to help prevent feedback while playing. So it isn't supposed to have any effect while you're playing; it reduces feedback by muting the volume when you aren't playing, which is when most feedback problems happen.
It isn't going to help if you're getting feedback while you're playing or if your background noise is so high it outruns the sensitivity control.
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Rick Davis
831 posts
Oct 20, 2012
10:36 AM
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A buddy of mine who is a pro player has a mini toggle switch mounted in the butt end of his bullet mic, so he can flick the mic on and off with his finger. It is quick and nobody can see it. He switches the mic off when he pauses playing.
That is the same principle as the LW gate pedal except it is manual. I can see why Randy at LW went this direction. But I think the manual method might be simpler, cheaper, and more effective.
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-Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
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SuperBee
649 posts
Oct 20, 2012
12:04 PM
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And yet 7limitJ gets his amp to 8 rather than 6.
If the background noise was not so loud that it opened the gate, I would be able to hear my amp and wouldn't have feedback problem.
I guess I'm in the habit of turning my VC down when not playing anyway.
Yeah I have no idea whether its working as intended but if so its still never going to be of use to me. Maybe if I didn't have VC it would be usefull. I guess that's the intended market.
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7LimitJI
675 posts
Oct 21, 2012
6:00 AM
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"I guess I'm in the habit of turning my VC down when not playing anyway."
I do this too. Next Sun, when I'm gigging I'll see if this is not necessary any more.
There is a limit to what the pedal does,it will not stop feedback during playing. Only when you've stopped playing.
When setting up to try the pedal, I had the mic in free air, ie not cupped. It fedback at 6.
Using the pedal I could go to 8, but the limiting factor was feedback when I was playing.
When not playing I could max the amp out, but as soon as the gate opens, it feedsback.
If the level you normally play at is so loud the mic feeds back unless you are tightly cupping it, and as soon as you stop playing you have to turn down immediately,before you uncup, then its probably of no use to you.
I avoid playing at levels like this if possible, as you have no headroom and are maxxed out all the time.
With how I setup, the pedal gives me 2 clicks of headroom.
If I'm feeding back as soon as I un-cup, I get the band to turn down.
Or put the amp higher, or tilt it back to face me, and if all this fails, tell the band to turn down again, and keep nagging them until they do!
But the real story will be revealed after its been gigged.
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The Pentatonics Reverbnation
Youtube
"Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out".
"It's music,not just complicated noise".
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