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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
I don’t like harmonicas very much
I don’t like harmonicas very much
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bonedog569
658 posts
Oct 14, 2012
9:52 PM
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But those are the exception. Not what we shell out for month to month and not what we honk on most of the time. See last para of my first post:
"I do own two harps that are worth more than what I paid. A Black Buddha from Chris, and a B-Radical. Both wonderful instruments.
It's a pity I'm afraid to play them** - the joke's on me I guess.
** (I actually do - but I have to think twice before I pull them from the case) "
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LittleBubba
242 posts
Oct 15, 2012
6:19 AM
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I getcher point Rick, so I think you should talk to a keyboarder who gigged in the old days with a Wurlitzer 140 metal reed electic piano. Let him tell you about soldering & shaving metal off his tines until you feel better. I've been there. Also, in general, I think I can say that there's hope.. the more years you play, the less harps you destroy, imo.
I'd be interested in finding out if others have come to that conclusion though.
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HarpNinja
2759 posts
Oct 15, 2012
6:30 AM
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Not all amps retain value. In fact, I'd argue that the majority of people who flip amps don't take into account their total overhead. Example...
Buy a Bassman RI for $800...put another $300 in it for tubes and speakers and other mods...sell it for $900. That is a LOSS.
The parallels between guitar and harmonica (and amps) is striking.
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Mike
OOTB Harmonica Price List
VHT Special 6 Mods
Note Layout Comparisons
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
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HarpNinja
2760 posts
Oct 15, 2012
7:56 AM
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I asked on thegearpage.net about annual cost of owning a guitar. With a handful or replies already, it would appear to cost about $1,305 the first year of a guitar. That is the cost of the guitar ($1,000), changing strings monthly ($15), buying a tuner ($50), and making an annual adjustment via tech ($75). This is representing the LOW end of pro gear for a pro guitar player.
That would be like buying 20 harmonicas @$65 a piece, which would be an upper-end pro-grade harmonica.
Let's assume you play $65 harmonicas and own two full sets, which is probably nowhere near the norm - $1,560 in start-up. I would argue most people would average closer to $40-50 a harp, which would bring the price to $1,200...so I guess the point is that year one is a wash between guitar and harmonica.
Assume you buy another $65 every month after the initial year...annually, you'd spend $780 a year in harps (although, in the real world it would be closer to $600). Again, I think this is WAY off with what most pros would even do.
A guitar, starting year two, would run you about $255 a year to maintain.
A bonus, though, is you can get a new harp for $65, whereas many guitars will run around $1,000 again. This also doesn't take into account that the guitar player will probably need to buy a strap, picks, etc.
I should also note, that I don't know too many guitar players who play stock guitars. They end up changing hardware all the time.
***Remember, there are 100's of people on this forum and probably only a couple who have full sets of "custom" harmonicas and the like. That represents the huge minority of players. I bet the average gigging player is playing pretty much stock Special 20 type harps - around here my gigging buddies play mostly Hohner MS and Special 20's. Only a few guys play many Marine Bands, and hardly any play non-Hohner harmonicas.
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Mike
OOTB Harmonica Price List
VHT Special 6 Mods
Note Layout Comparisons
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Last Edited by on Oct 15, 2012 7:58 AM
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groyster1
2053 posts
Oct 15, 2012
8:53 AM
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guitar strings most definitely need changing much more often than harmonica reeds...and I still say that harps are not expensive...
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waltertore
2578 posts
Oct 15, 2012
9:06 AM
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I change strings about once a year or less, and have my guitar set up about once every 20 years. The thing about guitars is they go up in value. My 1963 jazzmaster is worth at least a couple grand, my 1940 national steel style O 5k (paid $200 10 years ago), 1938 kalamazoo acoustic 1k (paid $10 10 years ago). I have a few other guitars of similar values that were given to me or I paid under $100 for. No way harps go up in value like that with such little maintaince over a 40-50 year period. I have used the same guitar cord/tuner for 20 years. Harps cost a lot more if you play professionally for many years than a guitar ever will. I follow the maintaince schedule the old blues guys did- you play it till it breaks. Comparing quality guitars to quality harps is just not realistic with overall costs over a 40-50 year period. Walter
PS: My harps last a year or 2 and I play them at least a couple hours a day. I play my guitar the same and all it costs is a set of strings.
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Last Edited by on Oct 15, 2012 9:09 AM
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bonedog569
659 posts
Oct 15, 2012
10:21 AM
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OK Mike, - you win. Whatever guitars , tube amps, mandolins, saxophones , you bought in the 60's 70's, 80's and early 90's , I'll trade you for. Gonna send you my pile of harps from those decades. . I don't care if your stuff has been maintained or not. I'll assume some years you didn't spend "$255" (I wanna be your guitar tech) maintaining your guitar and the pads on you old Selmer sax haven't been changed.
I'll pay for the shipping difference. I'll take the cheap 'throw away' brands too - harmony, silvertone, - whatever. (I'll be including my Huang Silvertones)
Love you - and harmonicas , but I don't know what you talking about here. With rare exceptions (and there are some), Harmonicas are treated like the strings on a guitar. They aren't 'the guitar.
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HarpNinja
2767 posts
Oct 15, 2012
10:36 AM
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"NInja, - working on amps is fun (for some of us), - and as I just elucidated above, are a durabel investment that holds (or increases) their value. Can't say that for harps."
All I am saying is the same can be true of harmonicas too. People pay hundreds for harmonicas that were mere pennies when they were originally made. While you might not make as much money, you can get a good return compared to the initial cost.
People are able to take a $3 (or less) harp from the 20's-60's and often get 100x or more in return for it now. B-Rads have gone for 2-3x times their original retail as well. I've seen Filisko's on eBay for hundreds above cost as well as Buddha harps.
Also, if you work on a stock harp and make it better, it is worth more money. Hence, the customization scene.
Amps, can retain or gain in value too, but not always. For example, the resell on a Pro Junior is not going to come close to retail.
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Mike
OOTB Harmonica Price List
VHT Special 6 Mods
Note Layout Comparisons
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
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CarlA
138 posts
Oct 15, 2012
11:55 AM
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You guys are missing so many more important details that add to the price of harps. For example, if you get your harps at a local music store(ie:Guitar Center, etc) you have to pay for automotive gas, insurance to drive the car, and tag costs. Because you will invariably be getting tire tread wear, and possibly a nail in the tire, you have to factor that extra cost.
Your in a rush for your evening gig, so you park your Hummer h2 in an "energy efficient" car lot. Police nab you for a non-moving violation. In your furry, a random punter bumps into you exiting Guitar Center. You give him attitude because your pissed about the parking ticket. He throws a straight right directly to your left eye, shattering your orbital socket. Dazed and confused, you stumble to the counter and ask for a C harp, blood oozing from your wounds. You feel light headed because of the blood loss, and faint, smashing your face directly into the glass countertop, sustaining several nasty lacerations to your face and hands. Before you completely pass-out, the last thing you notice are the paramedics and police officers rushing to your aid. You finally completely pass out, only to later awake in a prison. What happened??? Let's assess the damages...
Gas(pertrol)- $0.75
Car insurance(pro-rated)-$0.25
Tire tread loss(estimated)-$0.009
Parking Ticket-$45
Broken Glass Countertop(you know, the one your dumbass fell through at Guitar Center)-$750
Emergency Room/Doctor Bills-$7500
Bail/court costs(remember, the costs incurred because your dumbass decided to fight someone, and got owned)-$450
Missed gig-$100
Total Cost=$8,846.001
And your punkass thought you were only going to buy a $35 dollar special 20!!!
Last Edited by on Oct 15, 2012 12:06 PM
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Old Hickory
69 posts
Oct 15, 2012
12:07 PM
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I'll take a guitar or amp over a harmonica as an investment any day. Of course there are exceptions but they're few and far between. If I buy a new pro junior today and play it for 50 years I bet it will be worth a lot more than I paid for it. Do the same with a special 20 and it will only be worth whatever the going rate for scrap metal is at that time.
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bonedog569
660 posts
Oct 15, 2012
1:27 PM
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I will say- I am hoping that my slowly growing collection of 1847s will last, and be worth sending in for reed replacement when / if they fail.
At $100 - $200. a pop (depending on set up) - I sure am hoping they will.
For fourty years or so I have treated harps like strings and threw them out when a reed blew - as did our blues fathers before us.
We'll have to see.
Unlike my tube amps, horns and other instruments, they still wont be worth much at the estate sale when I'm gone, I'd bet on that.
So when are you shipping me that little Fender Champ your folks bought you when you where a kid? I've got my box of old marine bands, GM's and Huangs all ready to go ;)
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Gnarly
351 posts
Oct 16, 2012
12:05 AM
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Believe it or not, I save my strings when I change them--I've been doing it for decades.
Someday some Third World guitar player will thank me!
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didjcripey
398 posts
Oct 16, 2012
12:50 AM
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From the sound of it, you guys are more interested in the financial return on an investment than the joy of playing an instrument you love
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Lucky Lester
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oldwailer
1932 posts
Oct 16, 2012
11:38 AM
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Wow--some pretty interesting viewpoints here! As a guy who is primarily a guitar picker, I find that the ten-thousand dollar range of the really cool Martins is out of my range until I win the lotto--but, what the hell--I'm still kind of glad they exist and I don't dislike guitars because of that--I love the damn things!
Same with harps--yeah, they are a constant expense and a pain in the ass to maintain--but they give me a sound I want--and I love them too--I just wish I could afford more customs!
Playing music isn't about money--its about playing music. . .
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Oldwailer's Web Site
"Too Pretty for the Blues."
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BeardHarmonica
143 posts
Oct 16, 2012
12:07 PM
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sometimes this is how I feel playing harmonica
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mustamuri
1 post
Oct 30, 2012
6:08 AM
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all the blues harmonicas are trifles , bending is nothing it makes notes in wrong way .
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MrVerylongusername
2432 posts
Oct 30, 2012
8:14 AM
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I've yet to hear an argument that would convince me to invest in a set of customs.
here are my reasons why I'm hesitant:
1. I'm not convinced by the claims of night and day difference. I've heard those arguments before when people discuss brands and models of harp and found them to be mostly bullshit from the mouths of newbies with crappy technique. I am somewhat sceptical when similar claims are made by custom fans. I am also suspicious when the most vocal advocates of customs seem to be the customisers.
2. The investment. The harps I play (Lee Oskars and Golden Melodies) last me a long time - I think it's over 5 years since I replaced a harp. They are cheap(ish) at £35 and suit me fine. In the very rare event that they don't do what I want them to do out of the box, I know how to adjust them. Reed replacement - fine I know how to do it, have the tools needed and have performed the surgery successfully. But when my harps cost £35, and last well over 5 years (that's the last time I can remember replacing one, not how long they last me). What's the point? I don't even bother with replaceable reed plates - I just get a nice new shiny harp.
£35 vs. £150. Apologies to customisers, but surely we are in the realm of diminishing returns here? I know your prices reflect the time and material investment and I'm not accusing you of fleecing anyone - but would I really be getting a harp that is more than 4 times better? How can that even be quantified? I'm curious to know, but not £150 curious enough to find out ;-)
3. I've yet to be convinced about the tonal differences between plastic combs (which I like) and wood combs (which I do not). The only reason I'd consider aftermarket combs would be to replace the chipped and cracked GM combs I have - and that would be about function, making them playable, not aesthetics.
4. I'd be nervous about gigging with customs. I gig regularly with a big band, often shoehorned onto a stage area that would be cozy for a band half the size. My harps sit on the floor - would you want to leave £1800 worth of harmonicas lying on the floor with dozy drummers in big clodhopper boots walking about? and then there's insurance (admittedly this is speculation) at £150 each I think any insurer would be worried about the portability of a custom harp. If they were stolen - I would be amazed if a set was considered one item. In other words, what the insurance company would cough up after the excess was deducted on 12 individual items would be about the cost of my regular harps (if that). On the other hand my gigging harps are expendable. I'd be gutted if they were nicked, but I wouldn't need insurance or a loan to replace them. (and in case you're wondering that also applies to my mics too - just a throwaway Superlux for me, no vintage JT30s)
These are just my opinions and each of us is of course free to play whatever they want, but I am a cynic. The idea of people paying hundreds of dollars for B-Rads and then being afraid to play them in case they wear out says a lot to me. Those harps, and the sold-on Filiskos and Buddha harps are not, I suspect being bought as instruments, but as collectibles which is a whole different thing to gigging; and comes with a whole new set of rules and motivations.
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rogonzab
144 posts
Oct 30, 2012
8:37 AM
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I think that the hole discussion is exaggerated.
The initial point is this: a guy who is learning to play guitar pays more $$ than a guy learning to play harp. Buying a full set of custom is a choice that you make much later.
So, in that perspective:
According to the FAQ in this page, in order to start playing harmonica whit a band/jam tracks/records you need this keys: G, A, Bb, C, D, F. If all of that where S20 ($35 each) the total cost is $210. You can get a good starter guitar whit that money, but we are missing something.
When you first decide to play harmonica you buy 6 harps at once? No. You by a C first, then an A, then a G, and so on. So, the first investment is gradual and depends on the commitment of the player. It took me more than a year to have all of those harps. If we split $210 by 12 months = $17 a month.
You cant buy a guitar for pieces!
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