bluzlvr
197 posts
May 27, 2009
1:11 PM
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I was going through my daily Musicians Friend email today and noticed that they have a sale on Monster cable.
People giving revues saying what a difference these cables make in their guitar tone.
It got me to wondering if cables could make a difference in amplified harp tone...
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jonsparrow
368 posts
May 27, 2009
1:12 PM
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yes. the cables i use have gold plated connections. i use that for my mic cable, guitar cables, cables for my studio monitors etc...not that brand. just cables with gold plated connection i mean.
Last Edited by on May 27, 2009 1:34 PM
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jonsparrow
369 posts
May 27, 2009
1:24 PM
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allthough its not going to be anything drastic but yes it will sound better.
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Buddha
524 posts
May 27, 2009
2:24 PM
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the differences in cables are fairly minimal but they are there. I like and use Monster Cables not because the sound best (they don't) but because they have a lifetime guarantee and nearly everyplace carries them.
You may not appreciate how nice that is until you realize your mic cable was slammed in a door or harp case and no longer works. All you have to do is go to any place that sells them - receipt or not and they will give you a new one. There are other cables that sound better (Zoalla) but they do not have the distribution that monster has. Heck, I think you can even go to best buy and I believe target to get them replaced.
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mr_so&so
111 posts
May 27, 2009
2:27 PM
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Greg Heumann put up some long posts about this in a previous thread, with some excellent scientific explanations. You may want to search for that.
Edit: Oops, that was over on the HarmonicaSpace board under the Gear section.
Last Edited by on May 28, 2009 8:59 AM
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Preston
382 posts
May 27, 2009
2:40 PM
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Hey! I used to have this argument with people back when in high school when I was a car stereo junkie. You know who I was: the little shit head who drove down the street at 2:00a.m. with the radio blaring and bass rattling your windows while you were trying to sleep!
I'll have to look Greg's posts up because I was never able to tell ANY differnce in cables in the car stereo world. Now I'm interested again in the music world.
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MrVerylongusername
334 posts
May 27, 2009
4:26 PM
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Cable Capacitance is the problem.
Cable capacitance causes bleed off of the high frequencies. The effect is more pronounced the longer the cable run and with a source with a high output impedance (i.e your average harp mic).
Keep your cables short and you probably won't have a hugely noticeable problem - after all most amplified players dial down the top end anyway
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Greg Heumann
53 posts
May 28, 2009
11:54 AM
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Here's the post Mr So&So refers to. And Buddha's reason (a good warranty) is the ONLY one I've heard so far that makes sense to me as a reason to buy Monster cable. My harmonicaspace post was not to imply there isn't a difference in cables, but you have to separate marketing gibberish from reality, and you don't have to pay big prices to get a decent cable, but you CAN spend way more than is necessary. Here is the sordid detail:
Someone quoted the Monster Cable marketing thus:
"Dual multi-gauge Time Correct wire networks improve clarity and presence across the entire dynamic range
MicroFiber inner dielectric isolates magnetic fields for accurate tonality across the entire audio bandwidth
Multi-Twist construction tightly winds negative and positive conductors together for superior noise rejection
95% coverage copper braided shield rejects RFI and EMI for a lower noise floor and increased resolution
24k gold-plated contact 1/4" connectors are durable and corrosion resistant
I don't know what most of the above actually means. But, I still think the Monster Jazz cables sound perceptibly better than the generic guitar cords I had been using before. "
I responded:
John - I don't intend any disrespect. But you're listening to a bunch of artfully crafted big words and assuming they actually mean something. This Monster stuff is gibberish. Please allow me to translate bullschnit into plain english:
Dual multi-gauge Time Correct wire networks improve clarity and presence across the entire dynamic range
"Dual": it has two wires. All mic cables have one or two plus shield.
"multi-gauge": gauge is the size of the wire. Given that the shield is different from the inner wires, all cables could be said to be multi-gauge.
"Time Correct": this is pure and utter bullnards. There is no such thing as "time incorrect" wire. Electrons DO move at different speeds through different media, including different types of metal. But given that the difference is slight and the speed is close to the speed of light, there cannot possibly be any audible difference, even if your cable is hundreds of miles long. (It isn't, right?) I like how they capitalized "Time Correct" - makes it seem Really Important, doesn't it?
"Wire networks": OK - multiple wires in a bundle. We're calling that a "wire network" to impress you.
"...improve clarity and presence across the entire dynamic range" - given the clearer definition of the terms they use to convince you in the first place, do you now see that there is no basis for this claim?
MicroFiber inner dielectric isolates magnetic fields for accurate tonality across the entire audio bandwidth
"MicroFiber inner dielectric" - the insulation between inner wires and the shield is called dielectric. Its key function is electrical insulation and low capacitance. Microfiber is made from plastic, same as most dielectric materials.
"Isolates magnetic fields" .... DId you take Physics? Plastic doesn't interfere with magnetic fields. SPACING the inner away from the outer does - and ALL cables do this with the dielectric - some sort of magnetically and electrically non-conductive material.
"for accurate tonality across the entire audio bandwidth" - again - sounds like a great benefit, but it is completely generic once you understand what they're saying about how they accomplish it.
Multi-Twist construction tightly winds negative and positive conductors together for superior noise rejection
"Multi-twist construction" Oooh! Sounds so sexy. All audio cables with 2 inner conductors have those wires twisted internally for noise rejection. Guess what. So does telephone wire. It isn't new, or innovative. Its just obvious.
"Positive and negative conductors" ooooh! I'm getting hot! Pretty much can't have an audio cable without two conductors. That's why (guess what) ALL cables have at least two conductors. You can call them positive and negative, red nad black, or Ramona and Loomis for all I care - the fact is audio is an AC signal and the current actually moves in both directions in both wires. (Oh wait, that was part of the anti "directional" claim we talked about earlier.)
"for superior noise rejection": Compared to what? Another audio cable with twisted conductors, like, all of them?
95% coverage copper braided shield rejects RFI and EMI for a lower noise floor and increased resolution
ALL microphone cables have a "shield", usually of copper wire, either wrapped or braided around the dielectric containing the inner wires. Its job is indeed rejecting RFI (radio frequency interference) and EMI (electromagnetic interference.) Some shields are indeed made better than others. 95% is fine - but unless you know how much coverage other cables have, you can't conclude this cable is better. For the record, basic run of the mill, plain vanilla, every music hall, bar and theatre uses it Belden microphone cable (far cheaper than Monster) has 95% coverage too.
24k gold-plated contact 1/4" connectors are durable and corrosion resistant
Can't argue with that. Gold plated connectors are a reasonable idea. They lower the resistance of the connection and help avoid corrosion. However the resistance across any connectors in decent shape is way, way less than 1 ohm, so I defy you to hear the difference.
"I don't know what most of the above actually means."
See, I DO know what most of the above means. Which is why I can tell you you're falling for a line of jive.
"But, I still think the Monster Jazz cables sound perceptibly better than the generic guitar cords I had been using befor"
Why?
Maybe, because like all of us, you like to feel good about what you spent good money for. Why don't you have a friend switch between generic and monster cable without you looking. See if you can tell the difference. If you can, see which one you like better. You don't have to tell us - just be honest with yourself.
Sorry for the rant, folks, but it just makes me crazy to see people throw money away on stuff they don't need or that doesn't help when there is SO much that DOES and is worth real money. Monster Cable is Good Marketing. Its perfectly good cable too, but electrically it is no better than decent quality stuff costing much, much less. Please, buy better harps, better mics, better amps, and practice your amplified technique every chance you get. I promise you, you will receive a significantly higher return on investment.
If a cable sounds better than another, it is because it has lower resistance, lower capacitance, or both. I do encourage everyone to orchestrate a REAL, BLIND test. Use an A/B switch so you can switch back and forth immediately, time after time. I would LOVE to hear the difference between cables. And maybe it exists. But if it if it does, it ain't from "time alignment" or "directionality."
Neat! My cat just brought me a live lizard. Gotta go....
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/Greg
http://www.BlowsMeAway.com
http://www.BlueStateBand.net
Last Edited by on May 30, 2009 4:26 PM
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Buddha
538 posts
May 28, 2009
12:16 PM
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I never referred to any posts about cables Greg.
I like Zoalla cables but always have a monster cable or two for the reasons I stated before. If I have an issue in Sacramento I know I can drive a few miles from where ever I am and get a new one without having to spend a dime. That's the only reason they are worth it to me.
BTW- when my malinois was a puppy, he chewed three cables that I stupidly left out. I got new ones, no questions asked for the price of filling out a form.
Last Edited by on May 28, 2009 12:17 PM
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MrVerylongusername
336 posts
May 28, 2009
1:41 PM
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My Gawd!
I said in another thread how much I hate bad science and pseudo-scientific nonsense used to make the mundane seem like the arcane.
Total gibberish. Thanks for the translation Greg!
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bluzlvr
200 posts
May 28, 2009
2:30 PM
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Yeah, Greg, thanks for that carpal tunnel syndrome inducing answer.
I saw an ad in Guitar Player mag a while back advertising all these different cables (can't remember the brand) that were supposed to give different tonal qualities to your guitar.
I remember feeling a little skeptical.
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Buddha
539 posts
May 28, 2009
2:36 PM
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speaking of Monster brand... they certainly do a great job of marketing. While I have no issue buying instrument cables, I wouldn't buy anything else from them.
If you want some of their high end speaker wire, it's no different than using a regular extension chord from Home Depot...the same stuff from Monster is like $300 and you can get the same amount from HD, lowes, target etc for about $20.
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congaron
8 posts
May 28, 2009
9:45 PM
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http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?s=97d4a3c39d247bf955a57b3953326a34&p=15412&postcount=28
These were short runs and it's speaker cable, but the marketing theory is the same. Capacitance will be a bigger issue in microphone cables and guitar cables because of the lower signals being carried. Still, a little marketing goes a long way. I agree with Greg.
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Andrew
348 posts
Jun 01, 2009
11:53 PM
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I'm only used to HiFi cables, where huge claims are made, and huge amounts of money are spent. My speakers are Silver Anniversary bi-wired. I'm not convinced about bi-wiring, but at least once you've got it, it shuts up the carpers. HiFi improvements are mainly neurosis-driven (and has been since the 1970s), so I've gone for the affordable, and I don't wish to improve.
As for the physics of cables (skin-propagation, etc), I really can't be bothered to try to learn it - there is a lot of blinding with science out there, and dealing with it would take at least an electronics degree - it's like conspiracy theories: refuting them is very expensive, that's why people prefer to accept them.
As for the sort of cables you are talking about here, Chris's criteria look good to me. And if you're putting a harp through the equivalent of a bass amp anyway, then why do you want a cable with a ridiculously good high-end response?
Greg, small correction to your physics - electricity and electrons are not quite the same thing. Electricity moves down a wire at about 95% the speed of light, but the individual electrons are as slow as snails.
The phenomenon is the same as if you fill a hose with marbles. When it's full, you pop another marble in, and one pops rapidly out of the other end, but the individual marbles travel slowly.
Last Edited by on Jun 02, 2009 12:53 AM
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Violin Cat
47 posts
Jun 02, 2009
1:09 AM
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Great points here! As far as science goes silver is the most conductive metal on earth at 99.9997 or something like that Zaolla is solid molten silver inside, it's not voodoo it's louder, and has a better low and mid than any fancy cables that generally deliver only more high end. they cost more than anything else too though! to me and I don't have a lot of money, its worth it cause I do this for a living and run a lot of pedal etc...
J
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Violin Cat
48 posts
Jun 02, 2009
1:10 AM
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Great points here! As far as science goes silver is the most conductive metal on earth at 99.9997 or something like that Zaolla is solid molten silver inside, it's not voodoo it's louder, and has a better low and mid than any fancy cables that generally deliver only more high end. they cost more than anything else too though! to me and I don't have a lot of money, its worth it cause I do this for a living and run a lot of pedal etc...
J
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Gray
84 posts
Jun 02, 2009
3:11 AM
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You cant go wrong with quad/twisted pair(mic cable) or single core heavy shield mic cable of brands Canare,klotz,belden or any brands that a studio grade pa company can sell you.And for patch cables use 50ohm RG174 2-4mm coax (just like LAVA)
Any cable with arrows on it,forget it.The arrows will point to the retailers pocket.
You cant go wrong with Neutrix connectors.ANd if making your own cables dont use lead free solder.
Heat shrink on your connector to your cables will strengthen and stablize the weak points.This stuff is cheap and worth it.
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Greg Heumann
65 posts
Jun 02, 2009
9:50 AM
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A quick check at http://www.allmeasures.com/Formulae/ allows you to compute the conductance of materials given a length and volume.
I chose 20' of 1 square mm to most closely approximate a mic cable. Note that silver IS the most conductive - its resistance is 0.0967 ohms.
Copper is 0.1022.
The resistance of the typical amplifier input circuit is 1Mohm That's a million ohms. So the cable raises 1 million ohms by 1/10 of an ohm. I can assure you there is FAR more variation in the value of individual resistors on the input jack, from amp to amp.
1/10 of an ohm over 20'. Enough to make an audible difference? NOT! And that's the total resistance of the cable - the difference between copper and silver is only 5% of THAT!!!!
Oh, and "molten" means MELTED - the liquid form of metal when raised to a sufficient temperature. No such thing as a melted solid. Sorry.
Full disclosure department: I am oversimplifying a bit. The real truth is that the cable is part of an "RC" circuit (resistance/capacitance) and the two are interdependent. Less of either is better. But there is a law of declining returns. Save your money and work on your harp playing.
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/Greg
http://www.BlowsMeAway.com
http://www.BlueStateBand.net
Last Edited by on Jun 02, 2009 9:53 AM
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jonsparrow
389 posts
Jun 02, 2009
9:55 AM
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" "Zaolla is solid molten silver inside"
Check your dictionary."
haha
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