jonsparrow
321 posts
May 19, 2009
11:56 PM
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can some one tell me the next octave in the blues scale that starts on 2draw an ends on 6blow. i wanna go higher then 6 blow. if theres a way of doing it with out over blows that would be great cause i cant do them yet.
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DaDoom
96 posts
May 20, 2009
12:18 AM
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Hey jon
If I get you right you want to continue the 2nd position Blues Scale above hole six. So if you play on a D harp for instance that would be a Blues Scale in A, starting from 6b.
Unfortunately that is not achievable without overblows AND overdraws.
I'd say what you need to play is:
6b - 6ob - 7b - 7od - 8d - 9d - 9b
I can confirm that 85% of the notes are correct. Unfortunately I still can't play the 7od - I get all of the rest but this one just seems impossible. It's weird because I have the same problem on each and every harp I own. I get the 8 and 9od but 7... it must be a different technique or something. No idea.
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jonsparrow
322 posts
May 20, 2009
12:38 AM
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thanks alot man.
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rabbit
31 posts
May 20, 2009
1:20 AM
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I'm prolly gonna catch it but it so happens
I'm messing with this right now.
Got a C harp with a dead 4draw.
I filed the 7draw flat from B to Bb
and then (after all, what the hell)
I filed the 8draw flat from D to Db.
I'm too much a rookie to know what I'm
into and I'm going to have to try this with
a completely functional harp (that 4 draw
is kind of important) but you get exactly
what you're asking for this way via:
6blow-G--1
7draw-Bb -b3
7blow-C -4
7draw-Db-b5
8blowbend-D-5
9draw-F-7
9blow-G-octave
You can also get a B with a 7 blow bend.
I may drop the whole idea but that flat
7draw is kinda nice. If you've got a harp
to spare you might want to try it. Pretty
easy to accomplish, I was surprised.
Good luck what ever you do.
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DaDoom
98 posts
May 20, 2009
6:02 AM
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@jonsparrow: you're most welcome ;)
hey rabbit
It's what Todd Parrot says in each one of his youtube videos (btw. I love that player - for me one of the best players out there technically speaking). I tried the 7 hole trick on an old C harp. Unfortunately the harp is so bad that the 7 hole is more or less the only playable hole. So I'll eventually try that on a better harp and see how happy I am with it.
Now that I recognize how nice it fits the 2nd position blues scale I am eager to give it a try. A harp with a re-tuned 7 draw seems to make much more sense.
Last Edited by on May 20, 2009 6:02 AM
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Preston
364 posts
May 20, 2009
6:22 AM
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"A harp with a re-tuned 7 draw seems to make much more sense."
I'm not against re-tuning, but give me more info on your point of view. How does it make more sense?
Jon, I hate to sound like a broken record (cause I've said it a couple other times on other threads) but it is really worth every players time to learn what makes the blues scale in terms of music itself, and not in terms of harp holes. The C harp is the only harp where I have committed to memory where every note is, but it's not that hard to figure out other harps if you know the chromatic scale and where it exists on the harp.
It's also helpfull if somebody playing another instrument throws a riff at you. I don't have that quick of an ear to figure something out on the spot, so just I ask them what notes they are playing, and figure it out that way much quicker.
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mr_so&so
98 posts
May 20, 2009
10:30 AM
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jon,
If you haven't done so already, check out Adam's Youtube videos 030 through 032.
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jonsparrow
323 posts
May 20, 2009
10:36 AM
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ya i been watching them in order im up to 70 something. but i allways forget whats back there cause my skills wont progress as fast as i watch the videos unfortunately. ill check those out thanks.
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oldwailer
733 posts
May 20, 2009
7:02 PM
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FWIW, here is an extended scale I've been trying to work on for a while--it's presented in my materials as a Blues scale in 2nd position--but it doesn't contain any overblows. That is important to me because I'm not as highly evolved as some people in the OB department:
1+ 1' 1 2" 2 3' 4+ 4' 4 5 6+ 6' 7+ 8 9 9+ 10"+ 10+
Where a + is blow
nothing is draw
' is bent 1/2 step
" is bent whole step
I can't do it very well yet--but it sounds workable--the 10 blowbend is a weak point for me--but it's coming along.
I haven't sat down to figure out why it is or isn't a blues scale in terms of theory, so I won't argue about it or defend it--it works for me until I evolve to the OB level. . .
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mr_so&so
99 posts
May 21, 2009
10:21 AM
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Oldwailer, you're basically just skipping the overbends (except you've added in the 6', which is not supposed to be there). It's still good to know all the blues scale notes that you can reach without overbends, and then just fill those in when you can do them. I'm in the same boat.
Here's the complete blues scale notes in 2nd position (you'll have to scroll down a bit, for some reason):
Degree
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1
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b3
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4
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b5
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5
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b7
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8've
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|
|
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1+
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1'
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1
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2''
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3+ / 2
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1st 8've
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3+ / 2
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3'
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4+
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4'
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4
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5
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6+
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2nd 8've
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6+
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6ob
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7+
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7od
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8
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9
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9+
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9+
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10''+
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10+
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10od
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Last Edited by on May 21, 2009 10:37 AM
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DaDoom
99 posts
May 21, 2009
11:11 AM
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Hey Preston
I'll try to be more specific. Under the assumption that what you dig most is blues, and that the position you usually play in is cross, everything that facilitates the blues scale is a good idea. Let me see if I can put this toghether (I'm holding a D harp in my hands, so the Blues Scale would be A C D Eb E G A in crossharp). As it is now to continue the blues scale above hole 6 and still in 2nd position you have to play what I wrote above:
6b - 6ob - 7b - 7od - 8d - 9d - 9b
with the retuned harp you get the C on the 7 draw (Db -> C) thus eliminating an OB on the 6 hole:
6b - 7d - 7b - 7od - 8d - 9d - 9b
I assume, that you still have to play the 7od for the Eb (which unfortunately ist still a note I am not able to play).
You don't even lose the original 7d (Db) which you can now get by bending the 7b down a halfstep.
I wonder: if you tune down 8d a halfstep you'd have the Eb thus eliminating the much hated 7od note. Would you then be able to bend down 8b a full step (from Gb to E)?
Cheers
DaDoom
Last Edited by on May 21, 2009 11:13 AM
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Preston
368 posts
May 21, 2009
11:21 AM
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Considering the physics behind blow bending, I bet you could still get the E out of the blow bend. But I've never tried re-tuning any of my reeds, so I can't say it with 100% certainty.
I know re-tuning reeds is a very effective way of getting the blues scale on the high end, but for me I'm always gonna overblow/overdraw advocate.
You said to you it made much more sense to retune a 7 draw. To me that doesn't make any sense at all. The same note you are trying to achieve on retuning is already available as an overblow.
So I'm not knocking you or trying to start a long and lengthy thread were everybody's feathers get's ruffled, I'm genuinely interested in why you think it makes more sense to retune as read as opposed to learning to overblow. I want to keep myself open to other techniques and opinions so I don't become a stubborn ass.
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bluzlvr
193 posts
May 21, 2009
1:20 PM
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One reason I wish I could learn to overblow is to get that blues scale in the upper register.
For now I have to content myself with playing the major scale up there.
I take solace in the fact that Kim Wilson has a lot of the major scale in his playing...
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DaDoom
100 posts
May 21, 2009
1:41 PM
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Hey Preston
No problem at all. My line of thinking goes like this: any person who sees a harp for the first time can play a blow chord or a draw chord within 10 seconds. Most persons who have tried to play a harp for a couple of weeks can get a single note, be it draw or blow. Many players who have been playing the diatonic harp for years still either can't overblow or they are very poor at it. And there's even less players who can overdraw. My conclusion is that these are difficult techniques we're talking about. I had the luck of learning them quite fast. But there's many forum posts that show how hard they are to learn.
My goal is to play music that I like. I bet if you give it 50 years of practice you might be able to play harp with your nose on the same level as Jason Ricci, but what if there's a way to make your life easyer?
In short: if I can get any note I use in my playing by just blowing or drawing a certain hole, isn't that much better than to go through learning difficult techniques that require mechanical adjustments on the instrument (btw. that also takes years to learn or just a lot of cash) and require years of solid practice to be used consistently?
If all I want to do is get on top of a hill I chose to do it with nothing but my clothes and shoes rather than with a 50 kilo weight on my shoulders.
That said the discussion is on the standard richter tuning found on most harps today. Thanks to people like Todd Parrot I begin to understand that it's not the only way you can tune a harmonica. And maybe it isn't even the best way to do it.
I'm skeptical by nature, I question everything (and everyone).
Cheers
DaDoom
Last Edited by on May 21, 2009 1:45 PM
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rabbit
32 posts
May 21, 2009
2:52 PM
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I don't mean to start, or join a fight, but
I can't manage overblows. As an alternative
to overblows I think it can easily make sense
cause you've still got the tone you 'lost' available
as a blow bend.
I'm going to alter a fully functional harp with
a 7draw lowered a half step. I may take it
further and do the same to the 8draw. I'm
not experienced enough to know if I'm losing
too much this way, but so far I like what I've gained.
I'll keep trying to achieve an overblow and in
the same vein anyone who can afford it should
try this 'drop-7' tuning; experiencing it is just
too different from talking about it.
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mr_so&so
102 posts
May 22, 2009
8:28 AM
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This was mentioned in another thread, but if you can do the upper octave blues scale in first position (you need all the blow bends), then you can sneak some upper octave riffs in by playing first position over the IV chord, while playing the rest of the song in second position.
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chromaticblues
93 posts
May 22, 2009
11:14 AM
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jonsparrow try this:
2D 3D 4B 4Db 4D 5D 6B 5D 4D 4Db 4D
Then slide up to the 9D while breathing in.
Play 9D 8B 8D 7B 7D 6B 5D 4D 4Db 4B 3D 2D
Then learn slide from the 6B to 9B
and play 9B 9D 8D 7B 7D 6B 5D 4D 4Db 4B 3D 2D
These are a couple good little exercises that should help!
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rabbit
33 posts
May 22, 2009
11:34 AM
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mr so&so,
Thanks for that.
I'd forgotten that was there.
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