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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Big Amps and efffects pedals
Big Amps and efffects pedals
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Jehosaphat
296 posts
Sep 15, 2012
11:16 PM
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This is doing my head in.Picked up my Blues Deville this morning and spent the rest of the day playing with my new toy.
Started with a 12 AY7 into V1 and then proceeded to try all the combinations of my available pedals
L/W harp break
L/W Octave
Boss G E 7 equaliser
I am no mathematician but there is like a 100 000 different combinations therein?
The idea is to make the Amp break up earlier at lower volume,,,but given that it is a Blues Deville that 'lower' volume hopefully will still be adequate for pub gigs with a loud band.Mmmm
No luck yet.. at a tone i like(and no feedback) it is about a smidge louder than my VHT 6 LOL
Which leads me into my question: (I have never owned an Amp that has an Effects in/out option,i've always just plugged my mike into the pedal then from the pedal to the amp imput.I've only ever owned a couple of small amps)
To save me more hours of experimenting .What do you think is the best way to add these Effects pedals, into the effects jacks or from the mike/pedals into the normal imput.?
TIA...jeez i need a beer.^
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BigBlindRay
175 posts
Sep 16, 2012
1:35 AM
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Hi Jehosaphat
Check out this link http://lmgtfy.com/?q=guitar+amp+effects+loop
Then go here http://www.mackamps.com/blog/bid/65843/Effects-Loops-How-To-Use-A-Guitar-Amp-Effects-Loop
Or just read my Copy/Paste - You wont got wrong :)
First, there is no 'best' way to use a loop. You can put any effect in the loop and any effect in front of the amp and the tone will be good - but somewhat different. Your ears and your preference is what finally decides what goes where. That means you should experiment until you get a set up that you like best.
Second, before you start experimenting you need to recognize the difference between putting an effect in front vs. in the loop. An effect in front is working its magic on your guitar signal (or the guitar signal that has been effected by previous effects). An effect in the loop is working on the signal from the amp's preamp - that is the guitar signal effected by any effects out front and then processed by the preamp. Therefore, the only difference between the two is that the loop's signal has the extra preamp mojo to work with. Other than that there is no difference.
So, whatever your amp's preamp does to the tone is what the loop is going to see. High gain amps use a LOT of preamp distortion. Classic tube amps make the sound louder though the preamp and will add tube 'warmth' to the tone.
The other thing to consider is that, of course, the preamp section of the amp includes the amp's tone controls. That means the signal the loop sees has been altered by the tone control settings.
To sum up, from a tone perspective the only difference between the loop signal and the signal out front of the amp is the effect of the amp's tone controls and whatever sonic mojo the preamp adds. Otherwise, from your effects point of view they are the same. (That doesn't take into consideration the amplitude or size of the signal, but that doesn't really affect the tone.)
Your question is: in what order should my effects be placed. Common thinking says that 'time based' effects should go in the loop and the rest out front. Time based means any effect like delay, reverb, chorus, phaser, flanger, envelope filters, ring modulators, etc.
That's a good place to start, but I really urge you not to stop there. Think about it: doesn't it seem like it might be interesting to put, say, an overdrive pedal in the loop to take the signal that the preamp has worked on and add some OD? What would the added tube warmth and tone shaping from the preamp sound like overdriven? That's kind of interesting. Try it!
Same with distortion, or wah, or boost, or whatever. The other side of that coin is that maybe putting delay in front of the amp and then letting the preamp work on it - along with its tone controls - might sound very cool. Time based in front of gain/OD/disortion or vice versa? Many players do it one way and many the other.
You have two choices: go with standard practice and only put the time based FX in the loop or experiment and come up with your own configuration that suits YOUR ears!
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Big Blind Ray's YouTube Channel
Mavis and her China Pigs
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BigBlindRay
176 posts
Sep 16, 2012
1:38 AM
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FYI, I have been road testing a VHT Special 6 Ultra Head with a 1x12" Celestion Greenback speaker Cab - And compared to my 68 Super Reverb, The amp is just as loud with much more bottom end. The kind of bottom end that jabs into your sternum. I will be testing 2 x Heads and a 4 x 12 Speaker cab config in the near future. Im totally sold on VHT.
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Big Blind Ray's YouTube Channel
Mavis and her China Pigs
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SuperBee
585 posts
Sep 16, 2012
6:35 AM
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Hang on. Ray, you're saying you have a 6 watt amp with a single 12" and it's louder with a bigger bottom end than a 40-45w amp with 4x10"?
First question that comes to mind is "what is wrong with your SR?"
This is the ultra, yeah? In what way is it different from the special six everyone raves about? Ultra loud and bassy? I mean, I've heard a lot of good things said about the vht special 6 but I have never before heard any suggestion it will outperform a super reverb in terms of loud.
None of which is intended to distract from yer comments above about effects loops etc which is all very clear and nicely displayed. I felt a bit small minded to jump at the minor aspect of yer post and not acknowledge the very well explained and pertinent to OP part.
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Last Edited by on Sep 16, 2012 8:22 AM
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5F6H
1363 posts
Sep 16, 2012
8:02 AM
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@Jehosaphat - using the loop brings in extra gain from the SS send & return op amps...I'd stick with putting pedals in front of the amp unless playing at "supper club"/recording studio levels.
www.myspace.com/markburness
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Last Edited by on Sep 16, 2012 8:03 AM
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Rick Davis
684 posts
Sep 16, 2012
9:02 AM
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jehosaphat - What mic are you using? Does it have a volume control? How big is the room you are in when you try this?
First, take all the pedals out of the signal path. Turn the volume on the mic all the way down.
If you have another 12AY7 tube (or similar lower gain tube) try putting them in V2 and V3 - the second gain stage and the phase inverter - with a 12AX7 in V1. Roll off the treble and mids on the amp, and boost the bass. No reverb; bright switch off.
Stand away from the amp and give it a try at lower volume. Experiment with volume (mic and amp) and master volume on the amp until you get it optimized for loudness without feedback.
Add the Boss EQ pedal. Don't change settings on the amp. Make certain the Level slider on the pedal is at the half-way point.
Set the EQ so the extreme highs and lows are rolled off. The EQ faders should look like a frown, not a smile.
Try it again, and experiment with the EQ faders until you get optimal sound. Don't worry about tone so much as just feedback-free volume.
When you get it set for the most volume you can in your environment, add the other pedals one at a time, making certain they do not boost signal from the mic.
Try to get a good cup on your microphone. You don't need to crush it in a death grip, but isolating it from amp sound is the goal.
All this will get you some measure of progress toward a usable sound from the amp. It may not get you all the way. Try it and let us know how it sounds.
Last Edited by on Sep 16, 2012 9:10 AM
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Shredder
361 posts
Sep 16, 2012
11:50 AM
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You have a tube amp. So why do you need a harp break pedal? Maybe it's just me but why add another imitation to the real thing? I thought the harp break was intended for SS amps.
Mike
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Jehosaphat
297 posts
Sep 16, 2012
2:18 PM
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Thanks guys that is all good info and I have a clearer idea now of what i need to do
@Rick Ihave two mikes,both with C/Ms but my T3 has a bit more bottom end and is slightly more feedback resistant than my biscuit.
Room is carpeted about 6by 4 metres (20' by 13')
Have a V/C from Greg.
@Shredder
Since my last Band (was 12 or so years ago) i have only done the occassional 'sit in' and more later some open jams.
I bought the pedals as an easy way of getting some crunch through the PA without the need to be trying to find room on a usually crowded stage.
I've now got the opportunity to join up in two bands,one Chicago(ish) and another more Rock blues.
So i felt it was time to treat myself to a decent Amp cause i can now claim some floor space LoL
I've read about guys using (say) a L/w octave to "champify" a big Amp allowing it get some crunch at lower volumes,this is the sort of ability i aiming for.
With the 'Rock' band I could probably just open her up but The 'Chicago' guys play at a much more reasonable level so this is where i need to tame the amp down a bit but still hopefully get some crunch
Ok, a day off work today so into the cave i go.I'm glad i'm not my neighbour ;-)
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BigBlindRay
177 posts
Sep 17, 2012
5:52 AM
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@SuperBee.
"what is wrong with your SR?" - Simple answer: Nothing.
The SR is a fantastic Amp. And has served me well at many gigs. It holds it own amidst my guitarists (And we do like to play loud)
When I was testing the Special 6 Ultra, I was merely doing so as consideration for a Recording Amp, Practice amp or for Small gigs. What I discovered however was something entirely different altogether.
first thing I can say is that this amp cranks stock with the exception of changing the pre amp tubes. I never tested it with the stock pre amp tunes
Here are the spec sheet difference between the Special 6 and The Special 6 Ultra
Special 6 (Head)
6 Watts
One 6V6 Output Tube
One 12AX7 Preamp Tube
Volume and Tone Controls
Footswitchable Boost Mode
High/Low Power Switch
4, 8, and 16 Ohm Speaker Jacks
Mod-Friendly Eyelet-type Board
Special 6 Ultra (Head)
Overdrive and Normal Gain Inputs
Overdrive Gain Control
Variable Watts Control
Depth Control
3-position Texture Switch
Tube-Driven Effects Loop
Line Out Jack
6 Watts
One 6V6 Output Tube
Two 12AX7 Preamp Tube
Volume and Tone Controls
Footswitchable Boost Mode
High/Low Power Switch
4, 8, and 16 Ohm Speaker Jacks
Handwired
Mod-Friendly Eyelet-type Board
In terms of loudness, I have tested this in the rehearsal room and to my and my band mates ears the VHT is louder, I haven;t done an A/B test yet or measured the dB SPL but I will in time and try to report my findings.
Will be testing the Special 12/20 in near future too.
from what Ive seen on the forums, everyone raves about the Special 6 but it seems no one I have come across has tested their bigger brothers (Special 6 Ultra and 12/20RT)
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Big Blind Ray's YouTube Channel
Mavis and her China Pigs
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SuperBee
587 posts
Sep 17, 2012
6:47 AM
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My deville is the first amp ive had that really satisfies me in term s of being loud enough, but it's a beet h to lug about. If I can get louder with a 6 watt head an single speaker I feel i should return the deville to guitar spec, flog it and get one of these instead.
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5F6H
1366 posts
Sep 17, 2012
7:58 AM
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@Superbee - "Hang on. Ray, you're saying you have a 6 watt amp with a single 12" and it's louder with a bigger bottom end than a 40-45w amp with 4x10"?"
Wattage itself is a poor indicator of loudness, however some things do give an idea of how loud an amp can be...the Super Reverb runs somewhere between 400 & 530vdc on the power tubes (depending on year), the Super Reverb pushes 315sq. inches of efficient speakerage.
VHT runs what? 330vdc, less cathode voltage, so more like 300-310vdc, cathode biased, 113sq. inches of speaker...in a quiet situation, the VHT might seem to keep up with the Super Reverb...but on a stage, with drums & bass? The SR will stomp the VHT no question, even if running on just 1 power tube.
I own & know of amps of 10W or less that can keep up with amps 4-5x the *rated* power (rated power being a diagnostic situation, not a real world guarantee) but they all have lots of speaker area, reasonably efficient speakers (you can go "too efficient" & just encourage feedback) & high power tube voltages (>400vdc).
It's not uncommon to come to Ray's conclusion whilst playing in a regular room in a house/small rehearsal space...we have all been there with the, "my champ's as loud as a bassman" idea. It doesn't usually pan out, playing from the back line.
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Last Edited by on Sep 17, 2012 10:15 AM
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Rick Davis
692 posts
Sep 17, 2012
9:24 AM
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I agree with 5F6H. I've owned/played both amps in gig situations and it is not even close...
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-Rick Davis
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SuperBee
588 posts
Sep 17, 2012
1:50 PM
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This is cool. I do know that watts per se is not the key indicator of loudness. However it seems to be pretty much the universal rating standard for amplifiers. Why is that? What is the main idea I should understand from an amps watts rating?
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5F6H
1367 posts
Sep 17, 2012
2:37 PM
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@ Superbee "What is the main idea I should understand from an amps watts rating?"
Really it means that with an undistorted preamp signal (anywhere between 4mVAC & 100mVAC), the power section has the potential to deliver the rated W RMS clean signal into a dummy load, with the bias and vol/tone controls set as per the instructions on the schem (either all at 50% rotation, or fully clockwise).
The amp may make more than the rated W RMS when overdriven.
With a bigger than specified signal and different tone pot settings, bias etc., the amp may make less than the clean W RMS rating
The W RMS test takes no account of speaker efficiency, or voicing & subsequent dB, or perceived loudness. Theoretically, nobody hears the W RMS test (Fender's schems are all adrift a little, which may suggest they actually have a speaker, or a corrected load, attached).
Really it is just a set of diagnostic parameters that you use to ascertain that the amp is functioning as it should, the sort of thing you do if you find an amp can't cut it against amps of similar spec...once you have done that, you change everything (input signal, frequency, bias, tone pot settings, connect a speaker) and play it! ;-)
It's a little like BHP measurements for an engine - alone it tells you nothing about top speed (you can only guage that within the context of vehicles of a similar power to weight ratio & aerodynamics) and manufacturers vary the test settings to show their amps in a good light (there is no standardised input signal, nor pot setting protocol, some don't even apply the signal to the preamp at all - putting it straight into the PI).
If I want real world figures I set the amp as loud as it will go before feedback, tone stack as I would if playing the amp, put in 1VAC on the input jack...I don't really bother with, or care about clean signal measurements. You can also play through the amp, measure the output at the speaker with s true RMS AC voltmeter...I give it a few good blows on a A harp 3, or 4 blow. Trouble is the "real world" figures bear little resemblance to published W RMS which is what people use as amp power currency...so even that is a bit of a waste of time! ;-)
Comparative testing, putting one amp beside another, is the best & only test worth doing...but not always possible when contemplating new purchases.
A more useful guide (than W RMS) is to find out whether the amp is cathode biased or fixed bias (cathode bias loses some plate voltage, therefore power, & stiffness compared to fixed) and a ball-park idea of how much plate voltage the amp has (e.g. a 2x6L6 amp running 400vdc won't be as loud as one running 500vdc other factors being equal). Still, none of this tells you what it sounds like.
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www.myspace.com/markburness
http://www.facebook.com/markburness
Last Edited by on Sep 17, 2012 2:39 PM
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