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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Playing with another harp player
Playing with another harp player
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Rgsccr
74 posts
Sep 01, 2012
10:41 AM
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I've started playing out a bit - some jams, but also a couple of times where a friend has called me up to play with his band at a gig. He plays harp but also guitar, and we've done Red Rooster both times with him on guitar. That worked pretty well - not that I was great but I know the song well enough to sound okay. Last night he asked me to also play with him on Billy Boy Arnold's great song "I Wish You Would," and he played harp. This presented a couple of issues. While I used to listen to this song a lot and play along, I haven't done it in a long time. So, first, I really didn't know it, and, second, my friend is one of the best harp players in the Northwest so I probably wasn't going to sound too good playing the same thing as him. What I tried to do was to do fills in between his solos for the most part. That kind of worked (no one threw anything), but was pretty limited. Also, this didn't seem to me to be the kind of song where you can play a lot of chords to complement another harp. Would playing another position have worked, perhaps first (he was in second)? I mess around with this sometimes - playing third position on Sonny Boy's "My Younger Days" sounds good along with his second position, and same goes for Gary Primich's "Save It Up For Me." Any suggestions? Thanks. Rich
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Thievin' Heathen
14 posts
Sep 01, 2012
11:10 AM
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If I can just highjack your thread for 1 moment...,
It sounds like you are up in the North West. My brother has been ranting about a haap player he saw in a Coeur d'Alene bar one night. Says he was the best lead harp player he ever heard. Any idea who he might have been talking about?
Oh, 2nd harp backup? Chords and some accurate rythem with an ocassional echo/complementary lead riff? Not much help here, but understudy to someone you consider 1 of the best sounds pretty good to me.
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Rgsccr
75 posts
Sep 01, 2012
11:23 AM
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Hi Theivin' - Mu friend's name is Brian Lee and he mostly stays around the Seattle area so he probably isn't the fellow your brother saw. I don't get over that way so that guy was most likely someone I haven't seen. There are a lot great harp players around here including Lee Oskar, Paul Green and Brian (and others), and plenty coming through town - Kim Wilson, James Cotton ... Thanks for the backup suggestions.
Last Edited by on Sep 01, 2012 11:24 AM
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Joe_L
2013 posts
Sep 01, 2012
11:49 AM
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My suggestion will probably be unpopular. Learn the Billy Boy song for next time. It will demonstrate a willingness to learn the material and you'll have a tune that the band knows and can play with you.
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Rgsccr
76 posts
Sep 01, 2012
12:00 PM
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Joe - that is certainly a good idea. And I do know a number of songs that this band plays regularly. I probably should have just said let's do that one another time. Although, that still begs the question - if you are not really in someone's league (even if you know and can play the song), wouldn't it be better to play a complementary backup role?
Last Edited by on Sep 01, 2012 12:01 PM
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Joe_L
2014 posts
Sep 01, 2012
12:18 PM
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If they are inviting you up, don't be timid. Play. If they didn't want you up there, you wouldn't have been invited. When in doubt, ask them.
Whether you are playing with another player or not, I like to always leave space, so other people can fill the holes. Listen to the old Chess records. Part of what makes them cool is the interplay between the members of the band. The only way that happens is to leave space for the other players to play.
I will pass along some advice I overheard the great Chicago Blues guitarist, Carlos Johnson give to a timid player, "if someone is going to hand you a microphone, you had better use it."
When someone hands you a microphone, they are placing some degree of trust in in you that you won't screw up their show. They expect that you will deliver the goods. If they are truly better, don't worry about upstaging them. It won't happen, but you owe it to them to do your best.
You should play every note like it could be your last. Someday, that will be true.
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Frank
1092 posts
Sep 01, 2012
12:19 PM
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If you get the nod to blow, then blow your horn...if he wants you to trade 4's, have some fun, if it's time to just groove with the band -lay low, observe and get in the pocket, if you feel you have nothin to add, smile and snap your fingers.
Last Edited by on Sep 01, 2012 12:24 PM
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Thievin' Heathen
15 posts
Sep 01, 2012
3:12 PM
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"You should play every note like it could be your last. Someday, that will be true."
I like that! It seems I am doing a lot of things nowadays for some people who can't no more.
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colman
192 posts
Sep 01, 2012
3:29 PM
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in the 80`s and earley 90`s my brother a i and some other family had a jam band and brother and me played double lead harp,we did horn riffs,alman guitar riffs,and traded 8- bar ,cutting...so-! knowledge of rhythm gives you the freedom of language... blues speak, and 2 harp players can play just like 2 "gospel singers" whatever U want.......
don`t be afraid of some MUD ..!!!
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White Beard
4 posts
Sep 01, 2012
5:08 PM
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Your friend has faith in you. You might be better than you think. Learn the song and play making him sound the best he ever has. A good harp duet can bring the house down.. never ever sell yourself short. Igloos are real..
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Rgsccr
77 posts
Sep 01, 2012
7:20 PM
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Thanks everyone. Good suggestions all. I may have made this sound more like I have no confidence as opposed to a kind of technique question. I feel reasonably good about the way I play, and I do appreciate my friend and his band-mates being willing to trust me at an actual paid gig. The thing about learning the song is that I wasn't expecting him to ask me to play so I had no way of preparing a particular song. I think what I am getting at is trying to better understand the idea of playing off each other, trading riffs, or backing someone who is playing harp. I have a better sense of what to do when I am the only harp player. Also, with the position question, I think I am wondering about harmonizing with another harp player and what that can or can't add to the song. Does that make sense?
Last Edited by on Sep 01, 2012 7:21 PM
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jbone
1046 posts
Sep 01, 2012
7:52 PM
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working different positions ie one guy in 2nd one in 3rd or whatever- that can be a real effective counterpoint deal. also one guy doing rhythm through most of the song and one doing accents and fills and more lead-y stuff is also cool if used with discretion.
i work in a duo with a guy who was solo guitar/harp for years and there are a couple of things we do where i just support what he does and he gets all the lead harp stuff. he does the melody line. so i just kind of chug behind everything at fairly low volume. it fits.
if you're being invited on stage there are reasons: one is you are well thought of. one- which i experienced a few times over many years- was that the band was pretty new and needed some actual help getting through a gig! which is still a compliment if you ask me.
to me it sounds like your harp friend is extending a hand of friendship and respect and looking at you to bring what you got- and maybe surprise him as well.
my history is, i played a lot of living room and back road stuff and eventually began hitting jams here and there. never the "big" ones because i was afraid i'd be noticed as not knowing what i was doing. but even later- after i lost my attitude and began to be a student in the true sense of the word- i was making progress at the local jams. a guy i really looked up to, fellow harpman who had built a signature band and sound, invited me out one night, and i went. let's say i made up in enthusiasm what i did not know musically. but i have never forgotten that invitation or indeed many others over a lot of years. and later yet i got to co-found a band or 3 and work in several duos. when i could- and still when i can today- i invite a fairly new guy up to help out on harp, and we do something easy to stretch out on so he can get his feet wet for real out live. never forget where you came from and pass on the good will.
the mechanics are pretty easy to having 2 harps on stage. double the harp parts or do different horn lines, one do rhythm and one fills and accents, split the lead stuff up. one of my top 10 moments was playing in West Point MS with Slick Ballinger and Terry Harmonica Bean, and Kinney Kimbrough behind us on drums. it was about 8 years ago. Terry brought out my A game for real. we swapped leads for about 20 minutes and i did stuff i'd nearly never done with a harp before! Terry is a chugging monster and i doubt i'll ever be that good at chugging.
i'd say, accept invitations even if you don't feel
"ready". that's how you learn and grow. and the unconscious mind is a wild place, things come out at the craziest times you didn't even know you knew.
to me it's all a big lab. i learn something most times out and i picked up my first harp 40 YEARS ago.
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Rgsccr
78 posts
Sep 02, 2012
12:12 AM
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J-Bone, thanks for taking the time to think about and then write down those ideas. Lots of good info to consider. You, and many others on this forum are very generous with your experiences and insights.
Last Edited by on Sep 02, 2012 12:13 AM
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Joe_L
2020 posts
Sep 02, 2012
12:33 PM
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jbone gave you some great advice, as always.
Based on what you wrote earlier, I would still recommend learning that song. It's not a hard tune to master. If you get that one down, lots of Billy Boy Arnold tunes will be within your reach.
Spend time studying and practicing those old records. Your patience will be rewarded and your time will be well spent.
Darn near every great player (and most very good players) have spent a ton of time listening, studying and dissecting stuff off of old records. There are many paths to success, but that road is a well traveled path.
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Last Edited by on Sep 02, 2012 12:38 PM
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Rgsccr
79 posts
Sep 02, 2012
2:15 PM
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Thanks Joe - I will work on that song some more. Used to be able to play it okay. I do regularly play several of his songs from his "Billy Boy sings Sonny Boy" album like $1000 bill and New Jail House Blues. As you said, I spend most of my time practicing and listening to old blues songs from harp players - both Sonny Boys, Big and Little Walter, James Cotton, etc. - plus plenty of Muddy Waters, Robert Johnson, Sleepy John Estes and so on. I probably play an hour a day, and always play something from Sonny Boy I, plus Juke, My Babe, Help Me - maybe some others. At night I'll try other stuff - Paul Delay, Charlie Musselwhite, Rick Estrin, Wm. Clarke etc. Also, I have been on Sonic Junction for a year or so where Jerry Portnoy gives lessons. I have been getting better the past three years (after 35 years of bad to worse playing) primarily after finding the artist listing on harmonicamasterclass.com and getting enough harps to play in the right key. Plus taking advantage of all the good info on this and other websites.
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