1. Relaxaton. Playing softly. Playing lightly. Minimizing embrochure changes. You can't go from a draw bend to a blow to a blow bend to a draw to an OB or whatever quickly, if you change embrochures. Well set up harmonica. Practice.
2. Why not? Piano, violin, guitar..all instruments incorparate very slow to very fast playing. It is a part of music in general.
Last Edited by on Aug 28, 2012 7:54 AM
Yeah, it's really important, to me. But tone is more important. But if I can do both then my knife is sharp enough to cut whatever and whenever I want.
Hakan’s video (above) is interesting because it demonstrates a speed technique that Dave Barrett calls the PENDULUM in one of his YouTube videos. Essentially, the jaw moves left or right as far as 2 holes while the embouchure and harp stay fixed or lag behind. Watch Hakan when he plays the riff at full speed. Notice how he leads with the lower jaw (the pendulum) to get the speed.
Speed isn't required for someone to become an awesome harmonica player; what attracts me to a player is tone, phrasing, ease of execution, original ideas.
I think the goal of a musician should be to master the fundementals , learn to perform in a variety of musical styles with ease and comfort, and to eventually develop their own thing with the instrument.
Speed is something that comes along as a result of constant practice and performance. The important thing is to relax and not play too hard; what I do is more or less second nature. I am compelled to continue to practice, however, everyday; putting the harmonica down is detrimental to the player who wants to build their chops.
My advantage , if I have one, is that I know where most of the notes are on the instrument and I am able to play my ideas nearly as fast as I think of them. Knowing those things is crucial to experimenting and developing new approaches to the songs I know.
The key ingredient, though , is to remain teachable.
Great speed is a nice thing to have, but it is really only an element in a solid harmonica player's arsenal; as with anything else, what one does with that speed is where there is value or where is mere noise. ---------- Ted Burke http://youtube.com/watch?v=-VPUDjK-ibQ&feature=relmfu ted-burke.com
Last Edited by on Aug 30, 2012 5:46 AM
I think it depends on individual philosophy but I'm not sure anyone can argue the more tools you have on your toolbelt the better off you are when trying to say how you feel in any given moment through music.
Just remember everything in moderation during performance :) . Some of my favorite classical pieces have few notes & start put subtle & quiet & built into lots of louder faster notes.
How to play faster, probably take some phrases/scales & play then over & over at higher tempos over time.
Howard Levy has some lessons on rhythmic breathing where you practice various blow-draw patterns without regard to what the actual notes are. He likens these patterns to the rudiments that drummers practice. The idea isn't necessarily that you'll simply play these patterns, but that when you come to a fast passage in your actual playing you'll be able to recognize and quickly perform the underlying breath pattern.
Note that the riff Hakan is showing in the video above is almost entirely one pattern (blow-draw-draw) repeated up and down the harp.
I think the OP realizes all the essentials of making a fine harmonica player. He is not asking about quality or tone or anything else. He asked if lightning speed was important. The word important is a relative term so I'm with lumpy on this one. If your desire is to play "Flight of the Bumble Bee" or copy fast guitar licks then it is important. If you only want to play common Chicago style tongue block blues then it is not.
I must admit, listening to the fast stuff on the low end of a harp is tolerable --- if it's rhythmic.
At the risk of committing blasphemy against the harmonica gods, the fast stuff at the HIGH end just ain't my cup o' tea. I can't listen to John Popper, but I do acknowledge his talent. I've listened to Popper play the slow, grinding stuff and he was great. But, the high end, really fast stuff can make my skin crawl.
Speed comes with accuracy. each note stands alone and is on the money. If you can play a tune with each note clear you got the go. Speed happens after that. Yes its important to be able to play fast even for just a short riff but you cannot miss a note fast enough...... smilin.. in alaska..
The problem with speed isn´t so much how to acquire it (that´s a question of many many hours alone with your harmonica), or the necessity of it (saying "You don´t need to be able to play fast" seems a bit weird; like saying "You don´t need to be able to play slowly"). The problem is, once you´ve got it, to temper your usage of it. Not many people can do that. (Illustrated in the videos above.)
"The problem is, once you´ve got it, to temper your usage of it. Not many people can do that. (Illustrated in the videos above.)"
I don't think that's fair. I chose those videos to illustrate music that demands fast, accurate playing. All those performers are perfectly capable of slow, soulful playing when the music demands that.
The above examples are indeed good examples when speed is in the hands of harmonica players who know what they're doing. Some people want to play fast on the harmonica so badly that they skip learning the instrument altogether. The result of that is doing a tour of indoor Japanese shopping malls, singing and playing over prerecorded tracks in front of people who are wondering what you're all about. This is Bill Murray in hell.
---------- Ted Burke
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-VPUDjK-ibQ&feature=relmfu ted-burke.com
Last Edited by on Aug 29, 2012 11:52 AM
Speed chops are impressive by the fact that someone spent a lot of time woodshedding over and over those speed licks and chops.
I appreciate the effort that someone put towards this, but this doesn't move me musically, since anyone can do this if they spend the time repeating over and over memorized ideas faster and faster for hours and hours.
I like Miles Davis' approach in his hiring of saxophone players - they'd spew out lotsa notes in a short period of time during their solos, which set up the desired effect when Miles would then solo using lots of space and few notes with great musical choices. He did this on purpose.
Later on in his career during the last electric phase, Miles hired (I think) Bob Berg because he thought the audience would like looking at Bob's fingers moving fast on the sax. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by on Aug 29, 2012 2:52 PM
@timeistight: "I don't think that's fair. I chose those videos to illustrate music that demands fast, accurate playing. All those performers are perfectly capable of slow, soulful playing when the music demands that."
Is that really true of Sugar Blue? It´s very rare to hear him play a "slow soulful" solo. And I frankly don´t think he very interested in that -- at least not the "slow" part. Howard Levy´s prodigous technique, as monumentally impressive as it is, comes with the downside that he has to display it all the time. To me that´s an obvious problem in "tempering" -- quite a lot of material does not benefit from these virtuoso outbursts. (Like arpeggiating every chord.) Jason Riccis super fast stackato playing is, of course, a stylistic choice, unique and interesting -- up to a point. But I must say that I seldom heard him playing long melodious lines. (Apart from the welcome example with the band Heidi and the Elcats; also enoyed hearing him use another sound than his standard raspiness.) I think that this tempering issue is a considerable problem, and I don´t mean that to reflect negatively in any way on those outstanding instrumentalists that you brought up, it´s just that sometimes more is more, and sometimes less is more and the line is awfully hard to draw. And for those bozos that immediately cry out "Hey can you do it yourself then!", as if that was any prerequisite for having an opinion on a performance: NO, I can´t.
I think fast playing is really cool. I've been studying this really cool trumpet player doing some fast licks. Jason must have studied him as well because I hear similar phrasing and note choices in many of the licks. We all know Jason is one of the best at playing a diatonic harp, chromatically. He was smart to study this guy.
The thread has gone all different directions, but it might be cool if someone dug up Dave B's interview with Buddy Greene.. They had a great discussion on playing fast and how to accomplish it. ---------- Greg Jones 16:23 Custom Harmonicas greg@1623customharmonicas.com 1623customharmonicas.com
Todd Parrott played a LOT of very fast stuff in his solo set at Hill Country Harmonica this past May, and every (short, fast) note had soul and made musical sense, contributing to the overall emotional effect. That's hard to do! And it's one reason I wanted him on the program: because he can do that. His performances there would be a great thing to study for somebody who is interested in the OP's question. He doesn't always play rapid-fire like that. He knows when to slow down. That's just as important as having speed and knowing what to do with it.
Very nice, Adam as diplomat -my interpretation: Martin really framed this issue well and cited specific examples (people) to support his comments. Todd Parrot represents an excellent counter example that are few and far between. aka, Adam agrees with Martin's examples. *again, my interpretation
But now that I've read Martin's post, I'd say that although Sugar Blue almost never plays slow, soulful solos when he's blowing through an amp, he changes up his entire game when he plays directly on the PA mic--or at least sometimes he does. He focuses much more on the sonority of individual notes and often repeats one bent note--a 2d, for example--half a dozen times.
And Jason, fast as he's capable of playing, is clearly mischaracterized by Martin. Jason can play slow and soulful, amped or unamped, in several different positions. He's also very skilled at moving from sputtering machine-gunned notes to more slowly paced streams, all the while keeping the groove in focus. The best example of this specific talent, for my money, is the opening two choruses of "Down at the Juke," off of the BLOOD ON THE ROAD album. It's a slow, languid shuffle groove--what folks used to call the slow drag--and he switches harps between the first and second chorus, dropping a full octave to a very low harp. It's an example of a player of great technique who is demonstrating matchless musicality at every single moment. Not one note he plays sounds like any other living player; most of the "licks" are his own invention, not appropriated from the tradition, and yet the whole thing is completely within the tradition that he, with that solo, has just expanded to encompass him. The difference between Nicky Shane and Jason Ricci could not be more stark.
Last Edited by on Aug 30, 2012 5:26 AM
Carlos del Junco is another one that has speed chops, but doesn't use them excessively. He plays interesting lines, uses pauses in his phrasing, develops ideas over time and can creates long lines without speed - then puts in a speed chop for effect.
I know Jason has used Carlos as an inspiration and uses a lot of his ideas, even today. Have heard it over the years in a lot of Jason's playing and even from Jason himself when we had a conversation years ago at one of Gindick's Jam Camps.
Some of the other players talked about recently are more into speed 90% of the time and don't really develop cohesive ideas that unfold, and once in a while slow down (maybe to show that they can?).
I only heard Todd Parrott in a few clips, including the Amazing Grace, and feel that he is like Carlos in his overall musical approach.
Sandy Weltman is another one that mixes speed and cohesive ideas well. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by on Aug 30, 2012 7:39 AM
I retract. I need to hear Down at the Juke. When I listen to Jason I too often hear his technique get in the way of an eloquent phrase. Perhaps hyper critical but still my observation. I will pursue Down at the Juke.
I assume we're talking about hyper speed and lots of notes. Even Chicago blues types can get pretty fast,although not for extended periods-more like short bursts. BTW- Adam is no slouch in the speed category,although it's not so obvious,until you try to copy it.
PPS- In Pittsburgh,we have a term for guys like Nicky Shane-jag off!
Last Edited by on Aug 30, 2012 7:29 AM
listening to blues and speed"roller coaster" LW.has the smoothest runs slow,medium to fast!!!that was over 50 yrs. ago and nobody that i`ve heard has done any better than copy it.and on top of speed is dynamics ,that song kicks A$$...that song should be studied like the classic musicans study a piece...
Also missing out on "Down at the juke" but will check it out. I own several of Jason´s CD´s, but I find I rarely play them.
If Adam can give an example of Sugar Blue playing "slow and soulful" it would be interesting to listen to.
Again, I repeat, I´m not out to get any of these guys, just stating a slightly diverging aesthetic preference from (what I perceive is the majority opinion) on the forum. I still hope that´s OK.
I had the pleasure of seein Sugar at the Chicago Blues Festival years ago and he played an acoustic set on a side stage and the playing was mean and lean...
@Noodles For the most part I use to agree with you about fast stuff on the high end. I've been playing for 26 years and when ever I think I know what I'm talking about and you have to do it this way. Bang I hear or see someone live playing against everything I believe in and doing it beutifully! There is a forum memeber "Bubberbeefalo" also known as Bob Butterfield. He use to play through a shure 57 through and old fender twin. When he played high end solo's it sounded like Billy Powell of Lynnard Skynard playing the piano. It was awesome! Never think you know what you don't like because someone out there can do it and do it right!
Last Edited by on Aug 31, 2012 9:44 AM
Thanks for posting the Sugar video, Adam. I have seen him twice ,most recently six months ago, and I can attest that there are several points in his performance where he slows down and alters the mood, from jubilant to meloncholy, demonstrating his mastery of chords, trills, vibrato, short fills. He is a master of building tension with slow pace and then picking it up as he goes along. The eventual and inevitable demonstration of speed and dexterity is cathartic, a terrific release of emotion. ---------- Ted Burke http://youtube.com/watch?v=-VPUDjK-ibQ&feature=relmfu ted-burke.com
When I saw Sugar Blue perform live a few years ago, he did indeed play many soulful slow solos.
This is a debate that needs to be settled once and for all. I've not been here for two years and people are still arguing about the same thing. So let's hash it out:
The "fast is bad" argument is this: Fast playing is not soulful. Fast playing distorts a musicians ability to communicate. Fast playing is done by people who can't play slow. Fast playing is not effective for the harmonica. Fast playing is just showing off.
Analysis:
Music is, at all times, a very subjective phenomenon. Does this mean that all opinions of it are valid? Through examining these claims, we will find that, no, not all opinions about music are valid simply because it is a subjective art. Indeed, some ideas, while seeming to have merit on grounds of emotional appeal, turn out to be patently false when subject to close examination.
First, let us take the most dubious claim of the 'fast is bad' crowd. "Fast playing is done by people who cannot play slow." When you consider the nature of what it takes to play fast (hundreds of hours of practicing), this seems an unlikely claim. In particular, it is true that one must learn to play something slow before they can play it fast. It may seem like fast players can't play slow because they play fast more often than not. But one must also consider the reasons: virtuoso players build their reputations by playing difficult music. They, in essence, build a 'brand.' If you show up at a Jason Ricci concert expecting to hear his usual style, but get "honest I do" instead, you will be disappointed. For this reason, fast players tend to play fast more often than not.
Next, let us examine the claim that "fast playing is not effective for the harmonica." This claim does not bear analysis. There are many examples: Toots Thielman, Brendan Power, Chris Makelek, Howard Levy, and a large host of equally talented diatonic jazz players. Each of the players mentioned developed a following, and made a big impact on the harmonica world. To say their playing is ineffective is to literally turn your back to the facts: Each of these players not only had an effect on their audiences, but such an effect that they impacted the way other people play harmonica.
Some say that fast playing does not communicate, that it is 'mindless wanking.' This may be true if the fast playing was simply the same lick over and over, but most of the fast players developed a wide variety of licks appropriate to the situation. The same was said of Charlie Parker, he was even kicked out of his swing band because he would not tone down his waterfall of notes. .... Anyone else care to finish it off for me?
This crap needs to go to bed. Fast playing is cool as hell. You don't have to like it. But you do have to recognize that is not only a legitimate form of playing, but it is the direction the harmonica world is heading. You can fight it, but you might as well protest the falling rain, and tell kids to get off your lawn.
1. Nothing to add 2. Only important if you think it is. 3. Wow! 4. Long dirt sleep in everyone's future. I guess this is as good a way as any of filling in the time. ----------
speed can kill- but, folks have car acidents going many different speeds...They may not be paying attention goin 25 mph and crash. They may be backin up at 3 mph and hit a pole. They may be goin the speed limit hit a patch of ice and good night Irene...A car is like a harmonica and the road is the band. As your driving around the song - the drummer might accidently have one of his sticks fly out of his hand and hit you in the head. Or the bass player may turn -hit an amp stand and it falls and crushes your foot. The guitar player might spin suddenly to signal the end of the song and hit you in the stomach. Music is crazy man!
speed, busy, wall of sound, will always outsell space. quiet, uncluttered. Our culture today sees the prior skills as the better/more skilled. Our culture is one of speed, wall of sound, busy, so it makes sense people playing this way will be more popular. Yes there are slower players today that are popular but for each of them there are thousands of busy ones as popular or more popular.
Personally, playing fast, busy, wall of sound, is the easiest thing to do but also the most boring. It gets monotonus after a few minutes. I did that in my youth. Full of testostorne, youthful profile, this makes sense, but as one ages that gets old. Guys like Buddy Guy have figured out the speed thing and has pretty much abandoned the space for speed, wall of sound, busy. He also commands 50k a show nowadays vs. the few hundred he did when playing with Junior Wells. Walter
here is one that has both fast and slow bursts/space of sorts
---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
The goal of every improviser is to keep their flow interesting and to avoid becoming monotonous; the ability to play fast ideally should merely be an indication of how well a player can control his notes and phrases. One of the marvels of bebop and post bebop jazz playing, especially in the work of Coltrane, is the brilliance of playing complex lines and insanely acclerated tempos--the famous "sheets of sound" and then to hear him slow it down almost without being noticed, digging into a particular chordal mode for some mediatively minor key variations, and then pick it up again, with new ideas. Again, I think it's a matter of a musician building something interesting with an improvisation with the tools he has. I would not say that someone like Sugar Blue is repetitive or limited in his approach to his instrument; he is , indeed, the model for how to play continously, quickly, slowly, at moderate tempos, and keep the flow fascinating, bright and emotionally satisfying. Speed is basically a facet that develops with great practice and is interesting only in the hands of the inspired muscian who chooses to remain musical and to challenge themselves with new forms. This is what distinguishes Sugar, Howard,Jason and other players . ---------- Ted Burke http://youtube.com/watch?v=-VPUDjK-ibQ&feature=relmfu ted-burke.com
Nothing is ever "put to bed." This will never be settled once and for all.
If you like to listen to and/or play fast, do it. If you are playing fast, develop the ability to do it well. Study the techniques that will build the speed you want, many noted above.
Some music demands accuracy and speed, but not everyone wants to listen to it. I prefer that artists mix tempos in their sets, and not do everything at full speed. But that is just my preference...
Fast players may be able to play slow very well, but it may not express what they want to express.
If you are annoyed by fast playing, don't expose yourself to it beyond what you can tolerate. Every artist can express themselves as they wish. The audience gets to choose what they support.
There may be a general trend that the younger you are, the more speed and intensity you like, but this is not universal.
Enjoy the diversity of expression. We will never all agree upon what is good, though we may recognize and agree upon technical ability.
I like this thread and the information and exchanges. I expect the issue will resurface periodically. ----------
I'm a little foggy on what phogi is trying to say here? He sounds large and in charge and wants us to put this thing to bed.
There is nothing to put to bed. If we put speed, overblows, TBing, Mics, amps, customs, and all the other topics we discuss on this fine forum to bed...well...we would have no forum. Great post dougharps.
We can talk about any allowed topic on this forum as much as we want to, as many times as we want to. New members join all the time and to be honest, I have learned new things when a topic is rehashed six months later.
I recently made another discovery. If I see a topic that does not interest me or I don't want to rehash it. ...I simply do not click on it. Works pretty well. Now..who wants to rehash overblows with me for the 132nd time?
Last Edited by on Sep 01, 2012 9:04 AM
First time I saw Jason Ricci I asked him at the end of the 1st set how many overblows he played..."WAAAAAAY to many to count" he said.... and he played them really, really fast I might add!
Last Edited by on Sep 01, 2012 9:11 AM
