Hard to get the regular bends compared to OOTB harps, but probably VERY easily fixed.
New bends are easy to play. In fact, it responds similar to an overbend harp. Meaning, if you finesse your overbends, which I generally do not, it bends using a similar technique. However, it will be easier to play for people who play valves.
The sympathetic reeds add noise if you aren't careful. I know that can be reduces through checking their gaps (insuring there aren't any), but I would for sure want to tweak this harp before playing it heavily (so it matches my style, but that isn't a diss as I do that to all my harps).
I see where using the new bends for inflection is an automatic. Hitting them for notes is like other new harps. Pretty cool.
Yeah I got one on saturday and haven't had much time to use it but I can already tell that mine will need some tweaks.
I am enjoying it now and am fascinated by what the potential is for such a thing. I believe it's too early to tell wether or not I will stick with it for the long run. There are some things that concern me, and I really doubt that it will ever make me want to put aside my standard richter tuned harps or my chromatic, or my harps that play overblows. In fact I suspect that very few people who already play that stuff will want to do anything like that. Don't get me wrong though, there are plenty of interesting things about this harp to take into account, at least I'll tell you I'm not put off yet.
One thing that you should understand before you send for one is that this is not going to play just like a manji with extra blow and draw bends. Using some of the new features with fluency will take some of us awhile. In some ways it may seem like taking up a different tuning but what I like about this new harp is that you can always fall back on the standard layout, it's all there, same blow / draw notes, same bends in their usual spot (but no overblows). One thing about that though: this is a tighter, more restricted playing harp airflow- wise even when you are just playing on the standard layout. I think that some people won't like that. Also, I'm not entirely satisfied with the way the 2 and 3 draw bends work on the suzuki harps that I've tried, and that is true for this harp too. For my tastes, the 2 and 3 draw bends on well tuned hohners are easier to play than the same bends on a good suzuki. Please don't think that I'm bashing this harp though. These are just the very earliest impressions of a harp player who is much, much less experienced than many people on this forum, I'm sure that many of these impressions will be adjusted or changed as we all get more familiar with the harp.
I have been playing strictly 1,2, and third position and I've never played all 12 scales on a diatonic before so that getting this harp is a real treat. I'll be going into 11th and 12th position scales as soon as I can. Thanks Brendan Power, thanks Suzuki.
I've got a few more things to say later but I have to run, do something here real quick...
Last Edited by on Aug 15, 2012 8:28 PM
Overall, it's definitely something I'm interested in and will be trying out for now. I believe that a lot of players at my level will enjoy playing their scales on this new harp.
The outside of the plastic comb looks like one of those white seydel 1847 combs with nice rounded corners but the sub 30 comb is slightly thicker. The hole spacing is standard suzuki or hohner hole spacing. The holes are shorter than the holes on a manji and at or around the same width which means that they are more of a square whereas the manjis holes are more of a rectangle.
My 10 double blow bend is really tight and needs a lot of breath force and a tight restricted stream of air to get it going. The single blow bend on that hole is not there for me at all. The 10 draw bend is difficult to play.
Eight draw bend is tough and cranky to play and squeals pretty badly. One or two of the other holes have a little bit of that squeal but you can sort of play around it.
All of the other bends on my harp seem to play fairly well and I'm guessing that someone with the know how could make some big improvements on the reeds that are making bending difficult for me. No third position scale practice on this harp until I can find someone to alter that 8 draw bend.
That leads me to the big question I have about this harp. I imagine that most people who already work on their own harps won't be too put off by this new design(?). What I'm wondering about is who will be able to help someone like me out with maintenance issues on this new harp? I have to learn to play better before I can even think about repairing and tuning my own harps so I won't be trying to fix this sucker by myself anytime soon.
Also, what about the added complexity of this new design? How long will those ten new reeds go before they have to be adjusted or replaced?
So yeah, if I can just keep it going I think this might work out for me. If not, I hope it works for a bunch of other players, but either way, what fun, much admiration for all of you who can make stuff like this happen.
Last Edited by on Aug 15, 2012 8:30 PM
Also, I forgot to mention that- If you compare the note layouts below you'll see that the holes that you play for your overblow notes on a standard harp are not going to correspond with the holes that you need to play on the sub 30 to get those same notes with the new bend.
Greetings from SPAH! There has been a lot of interest in the SUB30 UltraBend here, and all the harps on sale at the Suzuki booth sold out in 3 hours. Unfortunately supplies are limited until full production kicks in later in the year. By January they should be widely available and prices will adjust down, I think.
The stock SUB30 harp does what it says on the tin, but certainly benefits a lot from customisation. I have two fully customised UltraBends, one on the plastic Suzuki comb and another on a brass comb that I machined myself.
The improvement over the stock harp is is marked, and shows the true potential of the new 30 reed format. The brass comb one in particular is really loud, crisp and responsive. It has been getting a universal "Wow!!" from players who've tried it.
The other on the plastic comb is really nice too. If you like a brighter sound, putting on Manji or Harpmaster covers will also give you added sizzle and more volume.
The moral of the story is that it really pays to work on the reedplates of this harp if you want to get the most out of it - either yourself, or a pro customiser.
For Joe Spires: the reedplates are long-slot (Manji style). I'd love to play one you worked on, Joe!
Bye for now, Brendan
Last Edited by on Aug 16, 2012 1:07 AM
@ lor: I just machined the comb by hand out of a Suzuki Fabulous brass comb. It's possible to modify any solid comb made of machineable material to fit the Ultrabend reedplates, though you have to be precise as there is little space.
I will be offering specialist combs for the UltraBend in the future. They do make a difference.
However, the main improvement lies not in switching combs but in embossing the reedslots. Quite a few of the players who bought UltraBend harps at SPAH are doing that themselves (eg. Mike Fugazzi), and others intend having it done by specialists. I watched Filip Jers do his yesterday, and it made a notable difference.
The UltraBend is no different to any other stock harp: while it works out of the box, it can work a lot better with some time spent on refining the reedplates. Thankfully those skills are a lot more common amongst players now than they used to be.
I live in hope that the major manufacturers can still up their game in creating ever finer reed/slot tolerances and ideal reed curvatures to make that process less necessary in future. I'm pushing Suzuki hard in that direction, but it's not easy. Hand work will still be required for a long time to come.
Last Edited by on Aug 17, 2012 4:18 AM
In my opinion, this is logical evolution of half-valved harps, and I will get one as soon as possible! I'm a little dissapointed about comb and covers, for me it would be great to fit this reedplates into Promaster comb and covers, but as far as I understand, I need to modify comb heavily for this (widen slots)
Just curious as to why Suzuki (or any manufacturer) can't tweek their production to take account of the early feedback.
It seems pretty consistent on some aspects (embossing) so why not do that in production, produce a better product? Or are the tolerances too fine and it needs to be done by hand, which makes it impractical/expensive from a manufacturing pov?
I want to go to the Launch this weekend to check it out, but unsure whether to pick one up or wait until they tweek the production.
I could work on it myself, but I think I'll wait till I finish working through the stack of blown harps I'm reviving at the moment before I touch a brand new $200 one...just in case!
I fully expect them to do so. Technically, the harps aren't released until the 15th, I believe, and it isn't uncommon to see improvements in things as they get older - iPads, cars, etc.
I see it being difficult to send the harp with the correct gapping for everyone. I would fully expect to have to tweak gaps at some point just like on any OOTB harp. It does exactly what it claims to do, no question about that.
I commute to work as of this fall and get some time to sorta play. A horrible habit, I know, but I usually just play mindless drills and only on the open highway with my eyes on the road, etc, for about 80min a day.
I've been wood shedding the SUB30 this week in efforts to play some riffs, etc...pretty mechanical, like the blues scale in the top octave. My playing is very pattern based, so it is hard for me to play-play if it isn't a Richter tuned harp.
This is the first non-Richter harp I've ever even sorta bonded with, mostly because of the top end. I miss the extra flat 5 on the 10 overdraw, but am learning to cope, lol.
I really liked the PT harp I got too, and only didn't pursue that or the Powerbender more because of time. If you've ever seen anything from Simon Sinnek about the Golden Circle, I am totally an early adopter if someone sells me a good "why", but things don't necessarily stick with me in the long run.
IMO, a customized overbend harp at this price point is a better option for me, but I want this to be successful too. I wanted PT's stuff to take off as well as the B-Rad, XB40, etc. I like the options and flexibility!
The trick with the SUB30 is it is a very complicated instrument and in order to make it viable, people need to buy it. If they had come out with a better harp at $300, I don't know how many people would have bought it. Would it be better, yes. Would it be on the market, I don't know.
I love slide guitar and have always wanted a slippery sound like that. The XB40 was a solid option, but I didn't like the size. Valves were an option, but I probably play too hard for those. The SUB30, is the next thing for me to try.
I am a father, work full time at a non-music job I LOVE, and put in another 10-20 hours a week in as a customizer. I don't have time to setup a bunch of harps for myself or not get right to jamming when I do find time to play.
Something like the SUB30's Brendan had at SPAH is a very attractive option for chromatic type playing. I have to have that flexibility in holes 6-10 for my style. If I can get that at $200ish, it will be hard to turn down.
However, I could have set up an A overbend harp in the same time I spent on the SUB30, so for now, I need to wait and see. For now, a custom Marine Band or 1847 has more pros than cons. In my reality, setting up a MB to over blow on 1, 4, 5, 6 and overdraw for at least passing notes on 7, 8, 9, 10 takes 15min, and while not optimized, gives me similar flexibility with a tone I really like.
It's out of my usual price range which is why I'm a little wary. I usually stick to stock Lee Oskar and retune them till I can't, though I still have the Super64X I picked up a long time ago in Lisbon.
I've had the harp over a month now and have really learned to like it a lot. I removed the valves on holes 1-4 and used a heavy duty and waterproof medical tape to block of the sympathetic reeds. This gave the potential for a very responsive and traditional low end. Very nice!
I then went through and worked on all 30 reeds, the valves, and the reed slots using the same techniques I use on custom harmonicas. The big difference being the gapping and profiling of the sympathetic reeds. This took an hour or two spread out over the last several weeks.
One thing I didn't like about it was the timbre. It was too soft and muted for my taste. I switched to Manji covers and this made a huge difference in volume and tone. It is louder and brighter now.
Next up was to A/B it against a Session Steel, Marine Band, and Crossover in the same key. Going just by ear, the SUB sounded a lot like a Sessions Steel but slightly more compressed. They were very close in a lot of ways, but I preferred the modded SUB tone over a stock SS. Playbility of the SUB as a Richter harp was obviously way better.
I found the stock MB to play extremely well, it was literally right out of the box. It was on par with the modded SUB, which was slightly frustrating as I wanted the SUB to play way better. Don't get me wrong, the MB was excellent, as was the SUB, but the SUB lacks that "custom" MB feel still. If I had to guess, I would say due mostly to the comb.
I quickly used my iPad and a frequency anaylzer to confirm what I was hearing. The SUB is noticeably quieter than the MB...3dB or so...and the frequency response had more of a roll off on high frequencies with a boost at 250hz compared to the MB. In otherwords, the SUB has a very pleasing acoustic tone, IMO. It didn't have the MB bite, but it does have a great timbre when modded. I felt it was even sorta muddy stock.
My brief conclusion...
The SUB is a FANTASTIC harp for blues playing. I want to do a vid/clips, but time always escapes me...I am trying. I really, really, like it. I would be fine with more of a MB tone, but the modded SUB sound and playability is great.
The added bends, and this is a HUGE factor to me, sound like they belong. They don't sound like valve bends, and they sound a lot like really great overbends (but take a more traditional bending technique to play).
The biggest pro of the SUB30 was the extra notes on holes 8-10 compared to using overdraws. I feel that well set-up OBs on 4-6 on a lot of keys will rival what you can do on the SUB interms of pure notes, but you have a different kind of inflection and note patterns.
I customize harps...I prefer to work on overbend setups and the really really challenging stuff...I've been overbending for near a decade and consider using overbends as normal as playing traditional bends. I really really like overbending. The SUB30 is easier to play regarding getting those notes and it is a total game changer. There are pros and cons in that neither will make the other obsolete, and I will use both types of harps still, but this is a huge game changer, IMO.
The biggest issues with the SUB, FWIW, are the comb (I still think the harp is a tad leaky) and the gapping of the sympathetic reeds OOTB. They are easy enough to fix, but most people will find them inadequate.
You'll note in the pic I have a couple of dents in the comb already. I am not sure how that happened, but just be aware it is fairly soft. I am exploring gasketing with it right now and have keys of C and D coming this week. I know Brendan has mentioned aftermarket combs, and I am already working on one with Hetrick that isn't recessed.
The Manji covers required using a 2-56 bolt and nut as the holes don't really line up. This let me slide them to the front of the comb.
"Just curious as to why Suzuki (or any manufacturer) can't tweek their production to take account of the early feedback.
It seems pretty consistent on some aspects (embossing) so why not do that in production, produce a better product? Or are the tolerances too fine and it needs to be done by hand, which makes it impractical/expensive from a manufacturing pov?
I want to go to the Launch this weekend to check it out, but unsure whether to pick one up or wait until they tweek the production.
I could work on it myself, but I think I'll wait till I finish working through the stack of blown harps I'm reviving at the moment before I touch a brand new $200 one...just in case!"
With the machining and manpower involved, I would bet it would cost tons of money create the effect of embossing. For the most part, though, reed slot tolerances are good now and not a top priority for overall playability. Air tight harps with good reed profiles and gapping are much more important.
I picked a C Sub30 up at the Launch as the price in Japan is actually quite a bit cheaper than Overseas (due to usual costs).
I'm about to push out an update to HarpNinja with sub30 tuning support (and full key/tuning transpose for all tunes). [and powerbender/diminished tunings]
I found it's really useful to get real time pitch/visual reference feedback on the sub30 as I play around with it. It seems pretty spot on to me, just have to modify your technique a bit. It's almost a new instrument, so I'm approaching it that way.
I had to open it up to free a stuck 6D but that's the only thing I've done to it so far. I'm determined to get it playable OOTB. I don't have a manji, but I have a Fire Breath so maybe at some point I'll see how it sounds with those covers just to check.
The bending seems to benefit real finesse technique rather than force, and I've managed to get them all working apart from the 10 Blows which I'm gently working in/on at the moment. Once I get that working I'll cut a demo video with it for the new HarpNinja update. In terms of technique I think Steve Bakers section on Bending in the Harp Handbook (2nd edition) is a great reference point to start afresh from - gently.
I'm really liking it. My sense is I won't be able to go as crazy on it breath wise as a Lee Oskar, but will have to play it a with a little more finesse which will mean use will be dictated by song approach - at least for me.
After working on mine, I hit the new bends like their regular counterparts. Meaning, I play the 8 draw bend with the same force as 4 draw. My embouchure changes a bit, but not much.
I really have liked the PT Gazell half-valved harps I've tried. I felt, though, the bends where more finessed on those. That worked fine for me as an overbend player, but the SUB is much more like blues bending.
The HarpNinja thing always gets me confused! I have to relearn every time that it's Mike's MBH tag and the name of Komuso's software app.
Good to hear you're digging it Mike, and I like the look with Manji covers. As you say, Harpmaster covers will work (or Delta Frost, which are virtually identical), as will Promaster, Firebreath, Fabulous and Pure Harp covers. One thing though: make sure there is a bit of a curve in the covers, as it will help keep pressure on the front of the reedplates.
Looking forward to hearing what you're playing on that thing!
I'll for sure get something recorded this week. I did post a brief 1min clip of me just playing the bends.
Just a quick question(s) if it's ok, Brendan...
1. I can cut the divider out of the come that runs across all the tines like a SP20 comb, right?
2. PT style valves should fit, then, correct? I have the valves coming, but thought I'd ask. The stock valves have worked great (I did the Sleigh mod, though), and I was just commenting to someone that the valves don't feel like valves, which is a good thing.
3. Any comments on other Suzuki combs to try? It would appear that you would have to file the tines thinner to make room for the reeds, but that harp you had with the overdrive comb at SPAH was absolutely perfect.
1. Yes, no problem to cut the dividers out. They are just stabilizing pieces in the injection moulding cooling phase and have no function beyond that.
2. Yes, any kind of valves will fit, including PT's excellent Ultrasuede type. The comb channels are long so it's easy to fit valves.
3. Stock combs can be modified, but it's quite a tricky process. I will have some custom solid combs for the SUB30 available to buy in about a month.
Last Edited by on Sep 25, 2012 11:27 AM
I am working on one for a customer and I cut the plastic dividers out. I wouldn't say it made a big difference, but maybe that and a few other changes helped. I put the Seydel/PT valves on the top side as a replacement for the stock valves but mostly did this as I ruined one with the covers. After that, I spent a lot of time on the rivet ends and this is one case where a little extra embossing probably made a fairly significant difference.
Brendan, looking forward to the custom combs. ---------- Greg Jones 16:23 Custom Harmonicas greg@1623customharmonicas.com 1623customharmonicas.com
Embossing is a must with these. The big pro of cutting the dividers is serviceability, IMO. I don't ever really hear a difference.
I should have thought of this earlier, but I should have taken a screen shot of a frequency analysis of the harp stock vs modded. I'll be able to do that with a key of C and D, but I bet A would have been the biggest difference.
I'm kind of surprised that none of the experts are producing any demos of an out of the box Sub30, and instead rushing to rip them apart and advise that they need to be modified to be even remotely playable.
I've nothing against modding, but if a harp is not useable in a musical context out of the box then doesn't that make it useless? Especially a pricey one?
Surely it's not that bad that nobody can play anything decent with it out of the box, with a little working in time?
I got harps in C and D today...holes 4-10 are great...needed to tweak for blow bending, but the extra reeds were spot on. Personally, I am of Richard Sleigh's attitude that holes 1-4 don't need the extra bends more than the great blues sound.
Is there a way to record from my iPad camera while playing an mp3? I couldn't figure out why Audacity was randomly stopping my recording.
FWIW, I played the C while driving this morning. I tweaked the 3 and 10 draw reeds and taped down the first three sympathetic reeds, but it is otherwise stock. It plays great and I would use it live in a heart beat.
I don't think taping down the reeds and removing the valves on 1-3 is really a big deal. The notes stock where there and fine, but I prefer a more airtight Richter feel on those notes. I left 4 as is with no issue.
For me, the biggest frustration in holes 4-10 on any of the three is that I like a louder and brighter harmonica. Switching coverplates made a big difference. Embossing will help even more with that.
The A I got was inconsistent on the sympathetic reeds but otherwise on par with a high end Suzuki harp on all the active reeds. IMO, they are generally harder to bend than a Hohner OOTB. If you like Promasters or Olives or Firebreaths, for example, you'll probably really like the SUB30 OOTB.
I did put Crossover covers on the C, but they don't extend far enough back for my taste (looks bad). The Manji fit better and I couldn't hear a difference between the two. I went to put the SUB covers on a Manji, but they were too big. I used an old set of Firebreath covers on the Manji instead...worked great.
I bet I spent 10-15min tinkering with the SUB 30 in C and covers on an Eb Manji...not much of an investment for a really solid harp that played better than a lot of the overbend setups people charge for in the same price range. Especially so considering only a few people really do a good job on overdraw notes.
>>Is there a way to record from my iPad camera while playing an mp3? I couldn't figure out why Audacity was randomly stopping my recording.
What are you using Audacity on, a PC or a Mac? PC you can use http://www.fraps.com/ to capture, others exist as well. Are you trying to video the spectrum analysis?
I only have the C sub30, the bends seem ok to me. 3b seems harder than 2b for some reason, but a little technique is all it takes. I finally got the 10b full tone going quite gently now, working on the semitone...little tricky.
I haven't worked on experimenting with embouchure so much since I started learning shakuhachi. Good exercise though!
I meant having the camera working while iTunes was playing a track. iTunes shuts off when I switch to camera. No biggie.
They are harder because of the sympathetic reeds essentially leaking air. Hence the suggestion of taping those reeds off if you aren't using those bends. I did that on holes 1-3 on the C and it made a huge difference.
My D is bone stock and needs some TLC. For the most part, the sympathetic reeds are fine. The valves are a tad whistley, though. Holes 1-3 are very airy, but bone stock.
Two things I would do immediately upon receiving the harp are removing the valves on holes 1-3, or 1-4, and taping off the sympathetic reeds on the corresponding holes. UNLESS you really have to have those notes, which I don't.
The second would be to go ahead and emboss all the reed slots - all 30...even just taking a penny and a few strokes.
That will make a very noticeable difference - even if you just emboss the first 2/3 of the slot.
Gapping is always going to be up to the individual, and you may or may not want to gap the regular reeds. The sympathetic reeds, unless noisy, should be fine...if you emboss and push them into the slot more, that is actually a good thing.
The biggest issue with the SUB, IMO, is it isn't on par with a custom OOTB. You won't like holes 1-3 as a jazz or blues player. You will love the new bends, but you will have noise and lack or response from the blow bends on holes 8-10. It is not a balanced instrument until you work on it.
With tweaking, the harp will blow your mind, but I've gotten all mine from people who bought them, hated them OOTB, and wanted to recoop some $. I've had a number of emails from others who got them and didn't like them OOTB.
That being said, if you can do some basic tweaking, it is quickly an amazing harmonica. I would not buy it right now with the expectation I can gig with it without opening the covers. Or in my case, switching the covers, lol.
I just got an email from "East-Coast" telling me that the Sub30 is due in by the end of Sept. I've never heard of it!! I listened to Brendan's video and was blown over... no pun intended. I ordered one and can't wait to see what it can do. I hope to get more if it proves to be worth it. I have an SB40 from Hohner but I'm assuming that the Sub30 is a step up! Thanks Brendan for introducing me to it!
I wanted to wait until after I moved my extra inventory as to not sound like a salesman, but...
Having received several more SUB 30's in C and D, I can confidently say they play better OOTB than my first batch. There is MUCH less unwanted noise and squeal. The sympathetic reeds are much much better.
I still feel the blow reeds on 8-10 aren't gapped very well and while holes 1-3 play well, the change in timbre from the responder reeds isn't worth the extra notes (so tape them off!).
Thanks for all the info. I will probably end up having to try one.
Two questions: 1 When you say overbend, that is the same as overblow, right ?
2 Everyone seems to be removing the low end valves. Is it still totally chromatic with the valves removed ? ---------- Great experiences with: 1623 Harmonicas A human readable captcha would be nice.
1 Yes, overbends are overblows, but you can't play them on the UltraBend, the physics of the design allows you to blow bend on the bottom and draw bend on the top. 2 You have to overblow hole 1, but other than that, all notes (all 12 of 'em) are available on standard tuned diatonic harmonica--until you get to the second octave. BTW, folks are taping the responder reeds down--they may also be removing the valves, I don't know. I don't think Filip Jers is!
I gave up on trying to figure out how to record everything neatly and just recorded me jamming via iPad. The quality sucks, and there seems to be a latency issue, but you'll get the point, lol.
They really are cool harps, and I think this shows that with just a tiny bit of TLC, it is a great playing harp. I did have to gap that one a fair bit, but nothing really crazy. OOTB, the major issues were the blow bends not playing well enough.
You can hear, especially towards the end, that I only have a few licks with the "new" notes in the top end. I am getting there, though!
I checked every one of the latest batch before they went out to our vendors. I did not, of course, play any of them, and that is the proof of the pudding. I thought this video was great--you make the Ultrabend sound like a 10 hole diatonic, and believe me, I understand that we have to deliver that if we want this model to find a place in the harmonica community. Thanks for putting this out there!
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2012 6:28 PM
