This is pretty simple to answer from my observations. Like any phenomenom that has occured in our world, the right pieces have to be present. 30-40 years ago the right pieces were all there for live music to thrive. Today the complete opposite has occured. Like the horse, train, and steam engine, live music is becoming obsolete due to the factors present today. Live music use to be 7 nights a week in most all mid-large cities and by 7 nights a week I mean guys were playing and eeking out a living at it. I am not talking about all these open mics, pay to play, play for nothing, that is dominated by musicians that would never make it to a stage back then.
30-40 years ago:
how many tv channels were there? how many radio stations were there that played your favorite music? how far was it to the local club for you? how much was gasoline? how easy was it to find day work that paid for you keep? how cheap was a used car? A thousand dollars could carry you across the country used fender/gibson/marshal amps were cheap harps were $5 clubs had soundsystems and soundmen how many of the blues greats were still alive? how far would $10 last for a club hopping night? how cheap was a hotel room and a basic meal? musicians pay was $100-500 night for small clubs record companies controlled who heard what the hard copy press controlled who read what the booking agent was all powerful people were revolting from their parents way of doing lifeand it was cheap to live on your own a regional band could live decent off their music there were thousands of 50-200 seat clubs across the country making a record meant having a great studio, record pressing factory, album art, distribution, thus only the top sounds got recorded and this employed lots of people. things were controlled as to who got onstage.you had to pay your dues and this weeded out 90%+ of casual players.
today:
how many tv channels are there? how many play for free open mics/gigs are out there? how many music videos can one watch today? how many music channels are there? how many music magazines are there on the net? how easy is it to listen to music for free on the net? how many clubs pay more than they did30-40 years ago? how many clubs pay less than they did 30-40 years ago? how much is a gallon of gas today compared to 30-40 years ago? how much does a harmonica cost today? how many small clubs are left compared to 30-40 years ago that pay enough for a regional band to live off it? how many cds are available for sale today? how many instructional videos are available today? how many dvds of musical performances are available today? how much does a hotel cost in comparison to club pay today? how much does a basic diner meal cost today? how much is a cheap house renting for today? how easy is it to find basic day work that will keep you in a home and food today? how many young people spend their evenings with technology based devices vs. getting out and seeing a live band and will they pay $20 or more dollars to see a local band?
you all can add to this list I am sure but the fact is we are witnessing a technological phenomenon of unprecidented size. It is re-wiring our brains literally. Walter
---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
I know you were very much part of the live music world you're talking about, 20-30 years ago. People paid money and came out to see you (and your mentors, such as Lightnin' Hopkins) play live.
I also know, from your many postings here, that you have now pretty much left that world behind and chosen to spend your days in your home studio, playing for an audience of one--you--and then coming to this forum and posting lots of clips so your virtual audience can make of your music what they will, at no cost and on their own schedule. You almost never play live music anymore--meaning music made in real time and space for "present" audiences of dozens to thousands who have paid money for the privilege of being in your presence and each others' presence.
Your two lists make it pretty clear that you see a decline of sorts--even a moral fall, a loss--between List A and List B. Between Then and Now.
How do you see the arc of your own career vis a vis these two lists. Are you part of "why live music has declined in our culture"? Do you see yourself today as a symptom of the decline, or do you see yourself in some way actively working to oppose it?
Last Edited by on Aug 12, 2012 6:49 PM
Hi Adam: If you told me 30 years ago I would spend most all my free time playing to no one in a home studio, recording it, posting it to the web, with no real idea why, I would say you are a certified nut case! I lived for live music. So much so that I spent all my waking hours hustling gigs, hanging in clubs, moving all over the world because I heard such and such a place might work for me........
The wierdest part of this is not really that wierd. Whenever I was in the groove, let it be playing in front of 1, 10, 100, 1,000, or in a parking garage, or on the street, it all was the same. I literally left planet earth and traveled in a dimension that no other thing but music could get me there. What I have come to realize is being in my studio allows me to get to this place almost all the time and if it doesn't, I stop, with no obligations to continue. So I still play to the multitudes. Their spirits come in each time I play.
So am I blue about this? I have been. I do miss the good times when the music, audience, sound, all come together. I miss the excitement of working on getting to the next level. Not for fame, but simply to be able to play more. I miss the travel too. But I have also come to realize that ones life changes over time. What worked 30 years ago may not work now. I watched a bit of a gig from ground zero blues club last night on a webcast. I saw super chicken smoking onstage. That will not work for me today. Neither will dealing with drunks, ego manic club owners, as well as sleeping in my car, eating crap food, working at manual labor jobs all day and playing all night. Those days were wonderful but not for today.
What I do miss is the younger generation not latching onto the older players like we did. It still happens but not near as much as it use to. Todays world is about today. History is last week and that gets shorter each year.
(continued in the next post. It said I had too many words to post it all)
---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
I am a different test case simply because of how I do music. Try and imagine what it would be like to spontaneously create everything you do and record. I do this because I am driven to, not to be different and it has placed me deeper into a corner as the years went by. The struggle of simply getting the music world to aknowledge what I do and allow it to happen was an ever going battle. Recording 300 cds a year? Never repeating a song? No requests? No idea of what will come out of my mouth? Will I sing of war, hate, killing, love, forgiveness, racism? It is completely unpredictable what I will sing about. This goes totally against what our society views as music. It never ceases to amaze me when someone asks about my music and I explain in detail what I do and the first thing they usually ask is - do you repeat your songs at gigs/do you write the songs first? It shows how alien it is what I do. Record companies, radio stations, booking agents, major magazines won't touch it. Why? Because no one else is doing it. Many have told me- if others were doing it we could do something with it. These are a few things most musicians know little to nothing about.
I surrendered when I found working with special needs children to be so inspirational. It has, without me having a clue that it would, provided finacial stability so that my music can flourish even more than when I was doing it full time. No more lying, hiding, sneaking in the back door, hoping no catches me. These are the things I felt all the time when playing full time. Only towards the end of my full time days did I share publicly that I made everything up as I went along. I scored 2 record deals lying about how I wrote the songs and then got fired because I never repeated them. If I told the truth people hung up on me. If I lied I could often get a gig and if it went well they hired me back. Still I never shared what I did till I was living in Europe and I think the language barrier nullified it. When I hit Austin I let the truth be known and the stuggle got exponetially harder to get a gig. I see myself as a typical artist that does something completely differnt than the masses and it may or may not click in my lifetime. Either way, the main thing is I continue to be driven to do what I do and so far there hasn't been an interesting enough carrot dangled in front of me to change.
This is a long winded answer to a simple question, but like I said, I am not a typical musician from that era when live music was happening. In conclusion, I am not sure where I stand in the decline or active opposition of the scene today. All I know is I continue to be inspired to do spontobeat and my recording studio is a never ending source of inspiration. That is all I ever wanted. Playing clubs was the way to get their back then and like any learning experience one learns more about oneself as the journey unfolds. Today it has changed to the studio or strictly on my own terms when playing live gigs and from my take, the live gigs are pretty lame compared to back then- lacking of dedicated music lovers coming to interact. It is more background music. Who is that in the corner playing? They have music here? We came to eat not to hear music.......... I won't play these gigs and that isolates me for the time being because the little bit of interactive music going on today is based in a system that is still the opposite of mine and there are tons more guys competing for that gig that all are doing music the way that is expected. I love to play live and always will. I don't search out gigs anymore. when people come to me I make sure they are aware of how I do music and if the setup seems ok I go for it. Bottom line - I am thankful I found a way to express myself. I use to think it sad that it didn't fit in the mainstream but now I am just thankful! Walter
I recorded this one today before writing all t
Last Edited by on Aug 12, 2012 8:41 PM
I recorded this one today before writing all this. will you ever understand me http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=11825004 ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
I have to disagree...there is more music now than ever...more opportunities to share it too. The big difference is in revenue streams and performance opportunities.
I dont have alot of years ago exsperiece Walter But I do know that Tulsa and Talequae Oklahoma is happening for live music,If I wanted to play for free ,there is open mikes all week long.The last band I was in a couple years ago(The David Castro band),There doing good and got on Tulsa 23 morning show last week,there doing riverfeast ,I been jamming with Rainwater we did a charity event for Autism with a whole lot of bands called the Hawg waller.And there trying to organze a benifit for the oklahoma fires,Im fixing to do some harp work for another band thats playing live.Its happening in oklahoma now I seen on the net tulsa is in the top 10 places in the country for music right now,Live music lives,But hey you tube is cool also,Thank God for the internet and all it provides.peace My internet friend Walter ---------- Hobostubs
Last Edited by on Aug 13, 2012 2:38 AM
Hi, Times change. You have to remember in a lot of cases, especially for the bars, music was/is just the draw to sell food and drink. Karaoke and poker machines replaced a lot of musicians in Australia, and no doubt other places.
I remember being in Baton Rouge (part of my US Blues tour back in 94) and I was having a drink in a bar when a guy came in asked to speak to the manager, and then proceeded to pitch him this fantastic new concept machine...karaoke. I knew then it was all over;-) But that night I made it to Tabby Thomas's Juke Joint so all was ok again!
Distributed jamming, where musicians are in different locations, is also another area where you can push the technology. This is a machinima I made a few years ago with me playing harp/slide from Tokyo and the piano player is in Toronto - live, real time jamming. The drums/bass are from my side as well, AI driven responsive rhythm section I cooked up to play with when doing solo gigs. I find backing tracks to be like railroad tracks and limiting for jamming. The crowd are all people logged in from all over the place. The set is a little virtual Juke Joint I made to perform in.
No Music, No Life! ---------- Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa http://harpninja.com http://music.sonicviz.com
Last Edited by on Aug 13, 2012 7:07 AM
I'll add two reasons why live music has declined: 1) "drinking & driving" laws have been tightened and more closely enforced, and the cost of the ensuing court cases & fines has increased.. all this causing people to drink less in bars & reducing the available revenue for paying musicians.
2) the "working man's" disposable income has shrunk compared to 30 years ago, at least in the U.S.; the economy is dominated by "chain" outfits and large corporations who don't pay as well as the same jobs did in the 70's & 80's. The cost of health care for example, has increased at a much faster pace than personal incomes, and you could take the extra increase and fuel live music in bars easily. In other words, part of the problem is economics.
Mankind has been hell bent on eliminating live music since day one. I remember in the late 70's guys coming in clubs lugging a stereo system and boxes of records. They charged $100 and us bands were soon off the calendar. At this time I had met and was hanging around Roy Smeck. Roy was in his 80's at that time and when I shared my frustrations with this he chuckled. He then went on to tell me about when the radio and record came into being over 90% of working musicians were out of business. Up till then it had to be live or nothing. Now we have the looper, preprogramed drums, backing tracks, sampled instruments put together to make music. All these things put real time musicians out of work. Soon people that have no idea how to play an instrument will make their owm music via computer programs.
This is why I will always be a real time band with me playing all the instruments at once. I figure if I live long enough I will be an endangered species.
On my original post I meant this at clubs that were dedicated music clubs. They didn't serve food for their income. They served music. There was a dance floor, elevated stage, a pool table or 2 in the back, and a full liquor bar. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
LittleBubbba: That and the almost infinite choices for entertainment options(videos, video games, zillion tv/music channels, etc) have all come together in perfect harmony. Sadly that harmony means the ongoing decline of live music. People that weren't on the scene 30-40 years ago have no idea of what it was like. It was like trying to tell them about having only 5 tv channels, 1 phone attached to the wall...... The perfect harmony was present back then for live music to come together. Today we have it all coming together for it to fall apart. How many pro blues players today give lessons, do seminars, write books, make instructional videos? A ton. Back then no one did such things and no one sold products off the stage. Why? Because they were too busy making live music to live audiences and suriving off it. It will be up to the youn people to bring live music back. The youth historically has kept live music vibrant. Plus a cover charge that will put 3-500 dollars in each band members hand will be needed for the ful time musician to survive today(and play 3-5 times a week locally and 4-6 when on tour). Also they need to not travel more than a couple hundred miles between most gigs when on tours. Today people travel much more than that because there are no clubs inbetween stops any closer. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
Walter, I also wonder if one of the reasons there aren't as many really good musicians/bands today is that there aren't the opportunities to play 5 nites/wk. like there wuz in the 70's & 80's. Take an average musician and put him in a "house band" or on tour, playing constantly, and he gets way better, real fast. Nowadays there are alotta "throw together" gigs and alotta club bands either don't rehearse much, or don't play enough to get tight. The quality's not there.
"Soon people that have no idea how to play an instrument will make their owm music via computer programs."
It's already been the case for three decades at least. I don't think that the pioneers of house music, techno or hip-hop knew sh*t about playing instruments.
But I think there will always be people that play live instruments, and people to go and listen to them ; because those experiences are something unique.
(Wow, you hanged out with Roy Smeck ! That man was a phenomenon !)
LittleBubba: I agree. I remember playing 200+gigs a year on funky gear, PA's but when the vibe was right the place rocked. Now people have tons of money and time on their hands to tweak things but rarely put in a real performance. Time spent onstage with no safety net- like no secure career other than your music to sustain you will make a player improve real quick. I went to a 1 man band because when I quit playing full time I couldn't find the level of musician amoung the part timers who had other careers and families as their top priorites. They could play real good but lacked that thing that guys that played everynight for decades have.
The Gloth: I remember when I lived in Brussels I was introduced to some of the programers(musiicans??) for Front 242. I didn't get it and still don't. Yes people will alway want to hear live music but the musicians are becoming more and more of the amatuer ranks providing this service. No knock on them but a seasoned pro player is a whole different experience. Roy Smeck was a true old school show biz gentleman. He and his wife would serve tea and his walls were full of pictures ofall the famous people he associated with. Segovia was one of his close friends. Roy wanted me to join his band on harp. I knew nothing of theory(and still don't)and he was all about theory. He offered to teach me. I realize now how big an offer that was but at the time it just didn't feel right. Also at that same time I met Louisiana Red and he offered me to move in his house. Red mentioned nothing of theory and I jumped on it. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
Quote from Walter -"Yes people will alway want to hear live music but the musicians are becoming more and more of the amatuer ranks providing this service. No knock on them but a seasoned pro player is a whole different experience."
One thing that always sticks out like a sore thumb (at least to me) is how there are different Levels of musicianship/performance quality when I go to see a concert at a BIG venue.
I saw The Charlie Daniels Band last year and there were a bunch of seasoned pro players/bands that were very good but when the CDB hit the stage and tore into the first tune is was sooooooooooo evident that these players were operating at a different level - a level that makes your ears, mind and heart go to places where the other seasoned pro bands just weren't able to bring me.
@ didjcripey & Hobostubs Thanks! That's the normal stuff though. If you want I can show you the really weird stuff;-)
Actually it's only "weird" because you're new to it I think. Michael Nesmith (yes, Nez the ex-Monkee) has been doing this for a long time as well, but using professional musicians. He has his own green screen studio where they perform and are then composited into the virtual world. Looks quite neat. He only puts on pro's or session muso's. VideoRanch3D
If you think about it, it's just another variation of streaming concerts (like Live From Darryl's House ), but a little more intimate as it's two way and you can interact with the audience through various methods. Of course it's not like a face 2 face gig, but times change, tech evolves, and we do what we must to keep doing what we must - play live music to live people. I actually started doing it in 2005 as a fun way to rehearse material for live gigs I was doing here in Tokyo and soon found it paid more and was less hassle so I dropped the real life gigs and just went virtual. I still do a couple of gigs a week in there, but it was an interesting experience when it was at peak use. This short talk The Future of Music Online I gave at Tokyo Barcamp a few years ago explains a little more about it.
@waltertore It's a deep topic, what defines an instrument as being suitable for being classed as "live music". On the one hand we have pressing play on an iPod dj's to EDM (Electronic Dance Music) which typically relies heavily on visuals to offset the generally static nature of button pushers and knob twiddlers (elequantly put by deadmua5 in we all hit play) , but there are also many musicians experimenting with hybrid acts of traditional "energetic interface" instruments and newer forms of musical interfaces based on touch, gesture, body signals, etc and places to perform with them. I have a foot in both camps, but my personal preference given current tech limitations is the energetic analog interface of hanging on a bent string or bending a reed, which is one reason I developed HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo. Make things easier to learn, more people might play! The more people play, more spontaneous music!;-)
I don't think the live music conversation should be based around instruments or genres or even venues, as history has shown us how much these have evolved over just the last couple of hundred years, but it should be about - what is the purpose of live music?
If we think of it from that perspective it widens the performance possibilities, which is even more important when social and technological change shut the door or narrow what used to be viable opportunities.
Paul: You make good points. I am just voicing my observations and opinions. For me live music can never be replaced by a screen. Sitting next to someone playing unamplified is the ultimate live IMO. the stage, amplification, takes it to a more abstract level. But who is to say if a monitor screen is any less intimate. People will determine this by where they spend their money and if things continue as they are, the screen will sooner than later displace the face to face live music performance. Either way I stick to what inspires me and have no need to go with the times. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
Walter, Sure, I agree fully, nothing will ever fully replace the emotional bandwidth in face 2 face jamming and audience interaction.
I'm just laying out a continuum of the live experience starting at f2f and zooming off into the virtual, not a replacement for f2f though. Anytime, anywhere, anyhow - real, virtual, or a combination of both!
Quote from Walter -"Yes people will alway want to hear live music but the musicians are becoming more and more of the amatuer ranks providing this service. No knock on them but a seasoned pro player is a whole different experience."
You cant have seasoned veterns without having Amateurs thats just physics,Us (refering to myself) ametures have to start somewhere,If you dont have that then live music would surely die over time.just saying;-)
---------- Hobostubs
Last Edited by on Aug 13, 2012 9:52 AM
Paul: You are on the cutting edge. I am a dinasour that still doesn't own a cell phone and who has never played a video game....... I use my computer for recording(find it easier than maintaining a tape based system) email and this forum. That is about the end of my knowledge of todays techno gizmos.
Hobostubs: I agree but we need pros for amatuers to learn from and I am talking learning from them as they perform onstage and hanging with them in the flesh. I guess sooner than later the non tangible thing one gets from this experience(and has been going on for centuries via apprentenships) will soon be forgotten. All this is out of my control. All I can do is continue to do what inspires me. It does sadden me some that I have mentored under some of the greats and it pretty much goes to waste on todays generation. I am not on the scene and Spontobeat is alien to most so it is not suprising. History was and still is a huge part of my generation. Today's generation is also interested in history but they go back a year and it is comparable to us going back centuries.
But then I remember meeting this old black man who was a custodian at Seton Hall University. I would play in a stairway in the student center because the reverb was so sweet. He would be a flight down sweeping whenever I played. I got to talking to him and it turned out he sort was like I am today. He learned from the greats during his growing up in Miss. He went to plantation parties and juke joints. I got him to play my guitar and he mesmorized me. He said the scene changed so much he just fell off it. I had hoped to get to know him better but I was soon gone from NJ in search of the musical dream but that man inspired me and I still can remember his playing. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
I hear ya,You need someone to take under your sleeves and mentor,Im sure its still being done,I learned something this weekend from a guy who I went to school with but hes has about 12 more years at guitar than me,And has a good grasp on blues basics and country not real flashy,But he was showing me how to go the 1st change in a blues progresion the 1 to 4 change ,but to walk it up on the bassline,It was kind of basic but he could do it good and it sounds solid.I was like im going to learn that.
Then this 21 year old kid who plays guitar better than I will ever SRV clone type but has his own flair for being only 21 told me how to fix a problem i was having with my new rp155 effects pedal, and that Made my whole week cause I had no clue how to fix it , and I was scared my pedal was broke.
I met a older gentleman around 60 who's band was playing the same night as the band im in and I got a chance to jam with them for a set with my harp.And he liked it and wants me to work some with them,Im sure Ill learn something from him,he's older bluesy , i dont think he's a pure old school standards player but you never know,And there nothing wrong with being bluesy but doing originals,That to me along with presearving the originals is important for blues to live in the future,All is not lost Walter.Someone like me would love to learn what you would teach.
I think most real experiences have declined and been replaced by electronic. People spend more time on electronics and less time going out to shows, camping, hiking, seeing live plays. They barely can get out the door to go to movie theaters any more.
I am one of the weekend warriors, and know there is no way our band will ever be near as good as guys who play 5 nights a week. Still, there are people in this town who will throw down a few bucks to see a live band, and lots of bars struggling for patrons, so the scene is not totally gone.
But who knows, the pendulum could swing the other way.
Unfortunately, time changes things( music specifically)! Blues and classic rock are great, but truth of the matter is they are fading genres, and as a result there is no need for this type of live music. The current generation wants to hear 50-cent, jay-z, lady gaga, auto-tuned music, etc. James Cotton, muddy waters, BB king, etc mean nothing to the majority of the youth culture, probably nothing more than Bach, Chopin, Handel, pagannini, franz liszt, albeniz, debussy, faure, fibich, grieg, gossec, massenet, rachmaninoff, satie, weber, etc mean to most people on this board.
Last Edited by on Aug 13, 2012 6:19 PM
Times have changed. When I was a lad 60 years ago we provided our own entertainment & making our own music was integral. Genres were thinly defined (pop or classical) and we all liked much the same stuff ie kids & adults combined. Today music seems a much more personal thing and each listening to what they like on their ipods & sharing it with no one else. We harp players are a tiny community really.
Noise, I think has made it tough for the live music scene. Venues cannot have rock bands in a crowded neighbourhood thumping out noise & disturbing the peace. It is an over reaction as good music isn't all like that and can be intimate, understood and listenable. But it's not popular enough for the venues to fork out fees for. Every inch of available space in pubs & clubs is now used to generate revenue from gambling. Today the big Rock stars play stadiums to stage their extravaganzas of noisy music that the kids pay for & the promoters make big bucks from.
I don't think it is all bad as over the past years the no. of TV reality shows based on music like 'Australia (US, UK, Germany etc) Got Talent' 'The Voice' 'The X Factor' are all opening our eyes & ears to the huge talent pool we are competing with. Whilst it is not something I like or watch these shows are very popular and increase awareness of music.
Technology has made it incredibly easy for 'clever' people to produce music of a seemingly high quality that was never before achievable. Today there is more to playing than just being a good player or a good singer as a lot can be fudged. And it helps a lot if you are young, sexy, dress outlandishly, & pepper the crowd with F bombs. Sad reality.
Am I longing for 'The Good Old Days'? No, they are long gone. But in the ever changing scene there are still winners.
Walter - You forgot the two drink DUI and the governmental red tape making obtaining liquor licenses much more difficult. This creates lower attendance and a smaller number of venues. Increased taxation on liquor in the U.S. in the past two decades has increased the cost of liquor which is passed on to consumers. This makes $10 not go as far as it used to.
I have to fall on the "Not Innovative" side, and the writers contention that "Beck’s innovation does not lie in the sheet music itself, of course. It lies in the fact that a recording artist like Beck would NOT record his album at all but invite the world to record it themselves (using the sheet music provided)." is a load of fluffy marketing hype;-)
That's just plain silly. Sheet music is provided for pretty much every commercial release at some point, so anybody can record it. The only thing he's done is save money on recording imo. I think he would have been better to release a companion album of the sheet music plus the stems so people can remix as a starter, but I guess he's outsourcing that step to the community as well!
It'll be scanned and uploaded as pdf within a day I would wager.
You need to move to Oklahoma If you wana play live;-)I guess i just dont know what it was like,Back a few years ago,But every where i look on FB people, I know from my town are playing live,Hell ive even done some gigs here lately,;-)Walter I think your growing old in you pesimistic ways ;-)heres something I read about the Live scene and how Tulsa is a good place to be a live musician
