Somebody emailed me a clip, asking the questions above. I listened to the clip and, without harps on hand, can't instantly diagnose. The player sounds like Charlie Musselwhite, and although I assumed that it was in third position on a low harp, I'm not 100% sure that the solo, toward the end, is being played in third position. My ears tell me that the 2 blow may be the tonic note. Or the 6 draw??
If I had harps on hand, I'd have figured it out, but I'm happy in this case just to say: You tell me:
Sounds like he's using some sort of a special tuning for this tune. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Sounds like he's using some sort of a special tuning for this tune. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
I think Adam is correct. THe 2 blow is the tonic which would make it 5th position. This offers blow warbles between root and flat third on hole 2/3, 5/6, 8/9. It also has the dark minor sound of 5th position.
I play 5th as background on Phone Booth. It offers nice octave splits as well on root and flat third. Just gotta blow more. Similar to first position but starting at a different place.
This was a good exercise. We should do it more often, but not with a tune that is publicly available. Getting the answer isn't as important as how you get there. I guess that's why our teachers always made us "show our work," the right answer wasn't good enough. I don't have an Ab and found another way. I guess the lesson is that there's more than one way to skin this cat. ---------- Noodles CBH 2016 Chromatic available for trade
At 1:19 [edited to add: in the video directly above], he plays the blow bends in the upper octave and ends up on a blow note--which is the tonic, a Bb. If he's playing third position, that's impossible. All the tonic notes in third position are draw: 1, 4, 8 draw.
He's playing either the 7 blow or the 8 blow. If it was the 7 blow, he'd be playing a Bb harp in first position. He's clearly not doing that.
This means he's playing the 8 blow (with a little oscillation between the 9 blow--which he bends--and the 8 blow). The 8 blow is the root. So are the 5 blow and 2 blow.
On what key harp, played in what position (and in the key of B flat minor), are those three notes the root?
In 5th position root/tonic is B2, B5, B8. Bb minor in 5th position would require an F# harp, but it certainly doesn't sound like a regular F# harp which is very high pitched. But it very well may be a low F# harp.
Btw, a lot of minor material by Tom Waits is HARMONIC minor (major 7th). Bending blow 8 in 5th position does give you a major 7th, FWIW.
In 5th position 9 blow is the minor third and bending it gives you a major second/ninth. Anyway, he's definitely not playing in 4th position where D6 is root/tonic and D6 bent is major 7th.
Last Edited by on Jul 09, 2012 10:13 AM
I don't have harps here, but the more i listen,(especially to the live version) the more i think Charlie is playing harmonic minor in 5th position> As i hear it, he is avoiding draw 4 and draw 8 (flat 7th), working off blow 4 (flat 6th) on the low end and bending blow 8 for major 7th on the high end--all of which sounds pretty cool. But, i could be wrong.
A guitar player/singer who sometimes uses me as a sideman to play duo gigs has asked me to learn a Tom Waits tune "Jockey Full of Bourbon" which is harmonic minor. I've been doing it in 4th position, but after listening to Charlie on this tune, i may try doing it in 5th.
Last Edited by on Jul 09, 2012 10:35 AM
Since there are 2 videos in this thread, I wonder if Charley played them in exactly the same way using the same harps? This is a simple tune. There is nothing difficult here.
With the 1st video (that Adam posted) you can jump all over this thing with an Eb and Bb. It may not be the correct answer to Adam’s specific question, but the Eb and Bb do work quite well. To my ears, the second video “sounds” like 3rd position, the first video doesn’t, (until he solos). If he’s using a LoF# in the 1st video, he’s staying away from the bottom end and plays the mids and uppers.
If I was just learning, I would be getting the impression that I needed a LoF# to play along. Are you sure he’s not using a LoF in 12th position? Where does it end?
Going by the first video (Adam’s studio version) I don’t see any advantage to not use 2nd and 3rd positions.
@1847 Yup. I was just about to edit my prior comment. Nice catch! Sort of changes things doesn't it? It's a show-stopper.
Since Adam was sent the 1st video, that's the one to use. Key of Bb. ---------- Noodles CBH 2016 Chromatic available for trade
Last Edited by on Jul 09, 2012 11:36 AM
I'd say he do a harp switch in the second video At 1:29. Look at him fumbling at his back pocket. Maybe he plays fith before that, I don't know but it sounds unfamiliar so fifth it could be. I have a feeling he's playing third after that but it's just a feeling... Actually it all just guessing but it do look as if he's switching harps.
Edit:Dammit it takes long time posting from the phone.... :P
Last Edited by on Jul 09, 2012 11:15 AM
After watching the second video I'm even more convinced he is playing in 5th position. In the low ocatave the flat 3rd (blow 3) sounds like a solid blow note, while on the high end the flat 3rd (blow 9) has those dips in it like you would do on a blow bend.
YOu can play along with several harps, but I believe Charlie is in 5th position in both videos.
Why in the world would a blues harp player make the tonic note a blow note if he/she wasn't getting something in return from the position change, like avoiding an overblow/draw? We want our tonics to be a draw note so we can bend them, etc. In blues, most of the "bluesy-ness" is on the draw.
What is the tactical advantage here by using 5th position instead of 2nd? If there is none, then what's the point?
3rd makes sense, 2nd makes sense, 1st makes sense, but 5th? Why fifth? ---------- Noodles CBH 2016 Chromatic available for trade
Last Edited by on Jul 09, 2012 12:04 PM
Noodles, 5th is just different. Charlie has always searched out different.
One of the great things about 5th is 1 draw is a flat 7th, 1 bend, the sixth. 2 draw is the flat third, 2 single the 2nd. 3 draw is the fifth, single bend the flat fifth, double bend the fourth. 4 draw the flat seventh, 4 bend the 6th. 8 blow the root, 8 bend the major seventh, 9 blow the flat third, bend the second. 10 blow the flat sixth, single bend the fifth, double the flat fifth. All kinds of unbent/bent possibilities.
I think he uses a low and a classic F# (for the high notes ). Starts draw-bending the third hole I think. Does he perform an overblow on the 2d high note we hear?
Last Edited by on Jul 09, 2012 2:08 PM
@Noodles: It's not necessarily an advantage for playing blues to have your tonic as a draw note Bending the (draw) tonic in 3rd and 4th positions gives you a MAJOR 7th which is NOT a blue note, so that's not generally a useful bend for blues playing. But, if you think in terms of notes instead of bends, 5th position is very useful/flexible for minor key playing because so many of the notes you need are built in.
And, musically and stylistically, bending is not as important f for playing minor key blues anyway because the 3rds and 6ths ordinarily MUST be played minor dead on rather than bent. Same is USUALLY true for 7ths. So playing 5th is pretty useful for minor key blues since the notes you need are built in, and for expression you can bend D3 to get the flat 5th if you want.
In the first post, the band is playing in Bb-that scale includes pitches Bb, C, D, Eb, F, G, and A.
Look at the layout for third position on an Ab harp. Starting on the 4 draw-Bb. The eight hole draw-Bb.
The 2 hole double bend gives you the D for the flat third.
The four hole blow is Ab, the flat seven.
The 2 blow,C, the three and six blow,both Eb,give you the IV.
The V is the six draw,F.
The flatted V is the 3 draw bent two steps.
What do all of these have in common? They are all in the Bb scale,related directly to third position on an Ab harmonica.
Last Edited by on Jul 09, 2012 1:39 PM
I completely understand all of your positions (pun intended.) I am also aware of what’s available in the different harp positions… Flats, 3rds, minors, 7ths, etc.
My point is that what Charley was actually playing in Adam’s posting at the very top of this thread is available without 5th.- that’s all. But, for me, a larger commentary is emerging.
I’m noticing in more and more threads a suggestion that better players are spawned from playing a multitude of positions as if a harp is a Rubik’s cube that needs to be figured out to have any real progress. I read so much about theory, positions, notes, 3rds, etc. it almost saddens me.
Maybe I’m just old school and have a different emphasis. As more and more experienced musicians take on the harp, you hear more and more theory. There’s nothing wrong with that. Theory is important - it's just not "everything."
It’s just not how it was before. Most of us heard a bent note, went crazy with the sound and started playing. The harp wasn’t an “instrument” to us. Blues Music was a new world we wanted to jump into. You can't imagine how we had to work and fight for every bit of knowledge. It’s different now. Ask anyone who’s played more than, say, 15 years. I’m used to just playing what I feel, (within a structure, of course) and trying to make it sound good. Theory came later, teaching myself enough to do what I do. Theory seems to reduce this all to a few formulas. I know Blues harp is much more than that.
What I would say to the newer players is this:
The whole point of blues is the emotion you wrap around it. The harp is only a tool – nothing more. It’s something that someone made on a workbench. The reeds are just your vocal chords- YOU make them sing. YOU are the instrument – not the harp. YOU give it emotional highs and lows, YOU give it tone and it’s YOU who makes the sounds into music. You can obsess all you want about the theory, but without YOU and the heart you give it - it’s all irrelevant.
I don't have harps where i am, so i can't really tell what key anything is in. BUT, if we assume either Bb NATURAL minor or Bb HARMONIC minor you are talking about an F# or Gb (6b) in the scale which is available in third only at 3D* and if it is HARMONIC minor, which i think it may be, you also need MAJOR 7th which is available in third ONLY at 4D* and 1D*. (All of this assumes no OBs.)
In thjird position B8* generates a flat 2d/9th and B9* generates major 3rd and those notes don't sound like what Charlie is hitting on his blow bends.
(Btw, minor 3rd is Db, not D, and 5b is 3D***, not 3D**, but i assume these are just typos. I knew what you meant.)
So, anyway....while the notes are there and available in third, it does not sound to me like Charlie is playing the sort of breath patterns that correspond to the relevant note locations in third. The breath patterns sound more like fifth to me. But, again, I could be wrong.
Last Edited by on Jul 09, 2012 2:10 PM
5 th gives these big fat octaves sounds like you are playing chords. it allows you to use a low tuned harp like the f# try playing the thrill is gone in 5 th on a low tune harp you will have everyones attention i guarantee that.
Last Edited by on Jul 09, 2012 2:08 PM
Why 5th??? Because it's EASY. Minor pentatonic in 5th is the same breath pattern as major pentatonic in 2nd, just starting on a different note. So, all your 2nd position chops work in 5th--same skill set--so long as you don't bend randomly when you are in 5th.
Another thing--because of the ready availability of the 6b in 5th at B1, B4, B7 and B10, it's VERY EASY to move fluidly through minor chords in all registers. That's the biggest difference between playing minor blues in 5th and playing minor blues in 3rd. You really have to be much more careful on the IV chord in 3rd. You can be more fluid on the IV chord in 5th because the minor third of the iv chord is 6b which is available at four locations in 5th without having to bend while it is available only as a bent note in the lower register in third. And if you use this note, it's a note that must be played accurately at proper pitch if you are in a minor key.
Last Edited by on Jul 09, 2012 2:20 PM
@1847 Yes, I said that. I also edited a couple of things before reading your response.
I said this too: My point is that what Charley was actually playing in Adam’s posting at the very top of this thread is available without 5th.- that’s all.
But, I hear the first vid as minor. Don't know what particular key. Whatever it is, it sounds minor to me. I don't want to get into an argument about it, but maybe someone with a guitar or piano handy can chord it out and let us know for sure.
@noodles:"what Charley was actually playing in Adam’s posting at the very top of this thread is available without 5th.- that’s all."
There's a lot of different ways to play minor material on a Richter tuned harp: Third position, fourth position, fifth position and sometimes second position. The difference is that you can phrase differently in each position, and each position has different avoid notes. It's a matter of selecting the right tool for the right job.
There's a lot of different ways to play minor material on a Richter tuned harp: Third position, fourth position, fifth position and sometimes second position. The difference is that you can phrase differently in each position, and each position has different avoid notes. It's a matter of selecting the right tool for the right job.
YES. EXACTLY. We are in agreement. My personal choice is 2nd and 1st. Try it.
Noodles, I agree completely, in spirit. But in practice I think you're selling yourself short. The same reason you use more than one position is why more positions offer more...(insert position joke here). I'm missing what 5th can do. What hvyi said above really got my attention. I love minor tunes with BIG B3 rhythm comps with octaves -if 5th gives me more of that then I'm on it. To think I usually just avoid the chance to provoke hvyi into a TB vs LP session, but now I gotta thank him.
OT Note:this thread was a great read and I'm willing to bet would have been a mess without a recent forum boot.
Last Edited by on Jul 09, 2012 3:02 PM
@harpdude61 Using the studio version, what are the names of the high notes that must be 5th please? Maybe my ear is off. ---------- Noodles CBH 2016 Chromatic available for trade
Thanks tmf714! That is exactly the video I was speaking of.
Noodles...I could take the time to learn it all but I don't speak in terms of note names. I find it much easier, especially with other musicians to speak in terms of scale degrees...root , flat 3rd, flat 5, major 6th etc. It works the same way on any position and any scale and any key harp.
I'm going to try to simplify things here so pretty much any level player can understand what to do. Many players just move on when people start naming notes.
Try this....are you familiar with the old blues song "that spoon, that spoon that spoon? Try playing it in 5th position on whatever harp using octaves.
If you do not play splits then simply try 2b3b2b3b or 5b6b5b6b or 8b9b8b9b
I like to practice 5th position to this B minor backing using a G harmonica. Just remember that 2,5,8, blow are the root notes and one hole above 3,6,9, is the flat 3rd...use the octaves as well and add in drawing on 3,6,9 and splits..and sliding up a hole..lots of pretty partial chords are available using draw splits in 5th position...great for the V chord and adding tension. Try some blow warbles between the root and flat 3rd on all three octaves.
As you learn this you will find many unique licks for 5th position...same as any other.
