I've this 'problem' with playing in different positions, which makes me avoid playing/practising them. The thing is, I've been playing crossharp from the start, and that's all I did so far. When ending a different scale on the root it doesn't feel like 'coming home'. I keep having the tendency to end the note or lick on the 2 draw. It's what I hear in my head too.
When I try something 5th postition (which I been told a good position to learn after third) it becomes really apparent. That 2 draw as the blue third just doesn't feel right. With third position I don't have that problem because the 2 draw whole step, is bendable..
My question: is this a common issue? I mean for players who's main reference first was crossharp. How did you tackle this? Is just playing the scale endlessly the way to go?
The blue third doesn't really function the same way in a minor key -- there's no major minor tension to give it that spice.
Are you playing along with records or backing tracks? Fifth position minor is the relative minor to cross-harp major, so without strong harmonic backup it's easy to slip back to the major out of habit.
Last Edited by on May 23, 2012 11:46 AM
In another recent thread I mentioned using a drone note backing track. It's something Howard Levy uses in his harmonica school. It gives you a constant point of reference in the melody - especially when it comes to resolving phrases - until you learn the new patterns in that position. Really helped me nail 5th, 12th and currently 11th. I have a selection of iphone apps like bagpipe and Indian Tanpura and Shruti drones.
Timeistight, that works well..better than I thought..Thank you. It´s been a long time ago since I tried playin a long a track in 5th..its good to try that again.
Rubin. I can usually find the tonic..it depends on the harp I use how fast that goes. But I do need the internet.
You do NOT use a "blue third" playing in minor keys--you must use a true minor third, which in 5th position is 2 draw unbent, 3 blow, 6 blow and 9 blow. DO NOT BEND RANDOMLY in 5th position or you will take yourself out of key.
Starting out learning 5th position, you can use this as a basic rule of thumb: Avoid draw 5 and draw 9, don't bend anything but draw 3 and don't bend draw 3 more than a whole step. If you do this, it's actually pretty hard to hit a bad note. I mean, there's actually more to it and there are certain other bends you can use but this is a safe way to start getting comfortable playing in 5th.
Last Edited by on May 25, 2012 8:23 AM
You need a whole-step bend on draw three to get the perfect fourth, which you probably want. And a semitone bend on draw two gives you the ninth, a perfectly cromulent note in many minor situations.
The half-step bend one holes one and four give you a major sixth, which may or may not work; you'll have to use your ears on that one.
Take the song help me, that is a minor blues isn't it? But the blue third (in crossharp) sounds good doesn't it? I know the site overblow.com scalefinder.
Timesight: in 5th position the 3 draw is the equivalent of the 4 draw in cross isn't it?
Yeah, that's the thing Timeistight. If you make the drone your tonic note (first note of the scale) then you can start with the notes in the pentatonic (minor if it's a position with a minor feel, major if it isn't). Then you can gradually start thinking about other tones, but all the time you have the drone there to make sure you don't drift off into another key and to help you identify the notes which don't work so well.
"in 5th position the 3 draw is the equivalent of the 4 draw in cross isn't it?"
Sort of. The difference is that there are more notes available on the 3 hole than the 4. The 4 hole only allows one half-step bend whereas the 3 allows half-step, whole-step and even one-and-one-half-step bends. In fifth position that gives you the diminished (aka "flat") fifth, the perfect fourth and the major third, respectively.
I think hvy is using blue third to mean a note part way between the minor and major third. You'd certainly want to approach that note with caution in a minor blues. The general rule is minor over major sounds bluesy; major over minor just sounds wrong.
I made a mistake in my earlier post--I'm good at typos. Should have read "and don't bend draw 3 more than a WHOLE step" for precisely the reason timeistight pointed out. So I'm going to make an edit to correct that.
I agree with what timeistight is saying. A blue third is a quarter tone flat third. Played against a chord with a MAJOR third, it can sound cool. Playing against a chord with a MINOR third, you want to play a true minor (half step flat) third--a blue third will sound like a bad note. "minor over major sounds bluesy; major over minor just sounds wrong."
Bending draw 1 or draw 4 in 5th position gives you a MAJOR sixth. Bad for natural minor tunes (and just about ALL minor blues are natural minor) BUT perfect for dorian minor tunes. This is one of the things that makes 5th position so flexible--you can use it to play natural minor OR dorian minor AND tunes that modulate between both like "Chittins Con Carne" as done by Kenny Burell. Very cool.
"And a semitone bend on draw two gives you the ninth, a perfectly cromulent note in many minor situations." Yes. But since it is in the lower register, I would call this note a major 2d. I would call blow 9 bent a half step a 9th. But a rose by any other name....
The point is you can do a lot with 5th position playing in minor keys if you know which notes to bend when and use discipline about bending and bend to pitch when you do bend. You can't get away with bending randomly in 5th and you don't play blue thirds when you are playing in minor keys. the utility of 5th position for playing minor material is that you've got the minor 3rd, minor 6th and minor 7th available in all registers WITHOUT HAVING TO BEND. very useful.
this is also why my rule of thumb for safe 5th position playing works--the important notes you need are built in.
Last Edited by on May 23, 2012 2:24 PM
@K.Hungus: Yes. And 3 draw bent a half step bend is the flat/diminished 5th. And, if you are having a hard time hitting the 3 draw whole step to get the perfect 4th, (which is blow 4 in cross) you can probably cheat and get away with not playing that note in a lot of blues tunes. Not recommending that, but you can often get away with it.
Last Edited by on May 23, 2012 2:31 PM
Thanks hvyj and timeistight good info! I'll save that and look at it tomorrow..when I'm more fresh. I have to get those names (7th 9th majorsix etc) straight first, but I understand the gist of it.
A 9th is a 2d an octave up and can be a useful note for blues playing that is often ignored by harp players because it's not in the blues scale. Works particularly well on the V chord because it is the 5th of that chord.
Guitar players who know what they are doing will use 9th chords playing certain styles of blues.
Last Edited by on May 23, 2012 2:39 PM
While we're at it, the 6th is the 3rd of the IV chord. Playing minor, it's important to pay attention to whether the IV chord is major or minor. If minor, you want to play a flat 6th. If major, you want to play a major 6th.
NATURAL minors (most minor blues) and HARMONIC minors (rarely called, but playable in fourth position) have a MINOR IV chord and therefore use a flat 6th. Dorian minors have a MAJOR IV chord and use a major 6th. Third position is perfect for Dorian minors.
Playing a major 6th over a minor IV chord will sound REALLY BAD.
So, playing minor blues in third position, one has to be careful to avoid the major 6th (7D and 3D). Flat 6th is available at 3D*. Because flat 6th is available only in one register and only as a bend, third position is somewhat limiting for playing minor blues, although it is the position most players use for minor blues. Of course, the 6th (whether played major or minor) is not in the blues scale, but it is a useful note for moving through minor chord changes. Flat 6th is available in fifth position at B1, B4, B7 and B10. Very handy for playing natural minor blues.
Now, as we discussed before MAJOR 6th is also available in fifth position at D1* and D4* which are easy and reliable bends to hit accurately. So, fifth position is pretty flexible.
If you can play second position well, playing fifth position is easy since it involves the same skill set. The breath pattern for the major pentatonic scale in second position is IDENTICAL to the breath pattern for the minor pentatonic scale in fifth position, just starting on a different note.
Last Edited by on May 25, 2012 5:44 AM
"My question: is this a common issue? I mean for players who's main reference first was crossharp. How did you tackle this? Is just playing the scale endlessly the way to go?"
It takes practice - the kind of mindless repetition so it is just a part of who you are, and woodshedding against actual music.
Understanding theory helps as well...For example, stop landing on the root.
The approach I've taken is as such:
1. Learn the modes 2. Learn the arppeggios of different positions 3. Learn pentatonics of different positions 4. Learn the scales that layout well with harp 5. Make connections to other positions, licks, patterns, etc 6. Start jamming
That won't be ideal for everyone, but I had to know exactly where things fell in a position before I could start trying to play in that position.
Honestly, I picked up right away that some positions where just going to be better for major or minor playing. I also caught on about relative majors and minors. I don't really need to think about the position I am in, I can just play it now...if it is one I am comfortable with.
This all came from conceptual understanding and then procedural practice.
Michael Rubin gave a very good advice here to start playing around on different harmonicas on a progression wich you are familiar with(12 bar blues for example).
Just use your ear and try to find the notes that fit with the music so you start to get a feel for the position you are playing in.
After that of course you will eventually need to learn scales, arpegios,chords etc.... if you want to be able to play on different progressions or style but you can go a long way just playing by ear on those familiar progression.
We probably all started fooling around in 2nd position and I was playing blues in 2nd position before I even learned the complete blues scale so i think the same approach can work for different positions at the beginning.
If you want to have more understanding of what you can or can't do playing in those positions you will eventually need to learn a bit of theory.
