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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Switching from minor to major pentatonic
Switching from minor to major pentatonic
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AV8R
164 posts
May 13, 2012
5:41 AM
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-----When playing blues lead guitar the guitarist can easily switch from the minor pentatonic scale to the major pentatonic scale within the same song.
The result is a sound that can change from an Albert King type sound (minor) to a Dickie Betts type sound (major).
I'm sure this can probably be done by a blues harp player too, but how?
Thanks
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S-harp
21 posts
May 13, 2012
6:13 AM
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To start with ... listen to Albert Colins T-Bone Shuffle ...
There you find how to work with draw 3.
Major 3 on I
Blue 3 on IV ... and so on.
It's a good riff to start with when backing Albert style shuffles.
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The tone, the tone ... and the tone.
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hvyj
2386 posts
May 13, 2012
6:19 AM
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You just play different notes.
Second position, minor pentatonic scale:
(D2**) D2/B3 D3* B4 D4 D5 B6
Second position, major pentatonic scale:
(B2) D2/B3 D3** D3 D4 B5 B6
The () notes are below the tonic but are in the scale and commonly used for constructing riffs.
The following may be TMI, but is useful if you don't find it confusing: Assume you are playing a C harp in G (second position). If you play the major pentatonic scale in G, but start on B2 (E) that same breath pattern gives you the minor pentatonic scale in E, which is the relative minor of G. So, if the guitar player modulates to the relative minor, you can modulate right along with him by using this breath pattern, which, btw, is the same breath pattern you would use for playing the harp in fifth position (C harp in E minor). If you understand the breath patterns for different scales, it gets easy to understand how the different positions fit together.
But to answer your question, it's enough to have command of the two scales I've tabbed out above. You can get a lot of mileage out of these two scales and the blues scale if you know when to use each on what material.
Last Edited by on May 13, 2012 6:34 AM
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Frank
712 posts
May 13, 2012
6:23 AM
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Search the net too, the info is infinte out there - I found the advice below form a quick search...Saved me time typing it all out :)
The Basics:
Pentatonic scales are the staple of music. They are also widely used in rock, jazz, blues, country and bluegrass music. This fact makes pentatonic scales a very important part of learning to play.
So, what are pentatonic scales?
Technically speaking, any scale composed of five notes can be called a pentatonic scale (penta = five and tonic = notes).
In the real world, however, learning only two different pentatonic scales will cover 99.9% of the playing situations that you will encounter.
These two scales are referred to as the MAJOR PENTATONIC and the MINOR PENTATONIC.
The major pentatonic is built from these intervals:
1 - 2 - 3 - 5 - 6
In the key of C, that would be:
C - D - E - G - A
The minor pentatonic is built from these intervals:
1 - b3 - 4 - 5 - b7
In the key of C, that would give us:
C - Eb - F - G - Bb
The easiest way to figure out whether to use major pentatonic or minor pentatonic is "by ear".
Try one. If it doesn't work, try the other one.
9 times out of 10, one or the other pentatonic scale will work perfectly.
Often times, both will work, and you can mix and match in the same solo.
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hvyj
2387 posts
May 13, 2012
6:33 AM
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"Technically speaking, any scale composed of five notes can be called a pentatonic scale"
This is NOT correct. For a scale to technically be considered a pentatonic scale, no interval between the notes of the scale can be less than a whole step. So, not ANY 5 note scale will technically constitute a pentatonic scale.
It's the absence of any halfstep intervals that make the notes of the pentatonic scales work so effectively over the chords.
Last Edited by on May 13, 2012 6:42 AM
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Frank
713 posts
May 13, 2012
6:37 AM
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I'm sure this can probably be done by a blues harp player too, but how?
Get at your "C" harp and start switching the scales and it will become easier as you perservere...
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laurent2015
185 posts
May 13, 2012
7:08 AM
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Keeping in mind that if I want to play the C scale in sd.position, I'll need a F harp and in third position, a Bb harp, according to the fifth circle.
But what about bending?
Sometimes on a given harp, shan't we need to perform overs or realize that bends are difficult or impossible? Could it occur?
Last Edited by on May 13, 2012 7:10 AM
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S-harp
22 posts
May 13, 2012
7:40 AM
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@laurent
True ... 3rd pos is more minor, Bb i key of C... with the minor thirds d2** and d5,9
To get 3rd pos major, d5 needs OB
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The tone, the tone ... and the tone.
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hvyj
2388 posts
May 13, 2012
7:42 AM
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@laurent2015: On a C harp, you can get a G minor pentatonic scale, G major pentatonic scale, G blues scale, and G mixolydian scale very easily with no OBs, only bends (and you can actually get the G Mixolydian scale w/o any bending in the upper register).
Now, different positions actually put you in different modes as a starting point which means certain half step intervals are built in without having to bend for them. For example, in second position you have 7b at D5 and D9 without having to bend; in third position you have 3b at D5 and D9 and 7b at B4, B7 and B10 without having to bend; etc. So, if you know which half steps are "built in' to each position, you can figure out what other notes can be available through bending. Then it's a matter of selecting which harp (position) that gives you the notes you need to play a particular tune. None of this requires OBs. but sometimes, it's not possible to find a harp that will give you all the notes you need. For example, to play "So What" you need to use 2 harps; and, so far as i can figure out, "On Broadway" is not playable on a diatonic harp because it goes up in more half steps than are available on the instrument.
Now, most players think of third position as purely minor. but you can play major in third position on the low end w/o OBs. MAJOR do-re-mi scale, third position: D1 B2 D2* D2/B3 D3** D3 D4* D4. It's just a matter of understanding what notes each position gives you without bending and what notes you can bend for. if you figure this stuff out on one harp in any key, it's the same for all 12 harps in all 12 keys.
Last Edited by on May 14, 2012 8:16 AM
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timeistight
557 posts
May 13, 2012
8:15 AM
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"For a scale to technically be considered a pentatonic scale, no interval between the notes of the scale can be less than a whole step. So, not ANY 5 note scale will technically constitute a pentatonic scale."
No, pentatonic just means five notes. An anhemitonic pentatonic scale is a five-note scale without semitones. A hemitonic pentatonic scale includes one or more semitones.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentatonic_scale#Hemitonic_and_anhemitonic.
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laurent2015
186 posts
May 13, 2012
9:44 AM
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hvyj, plain explanation, but just to be sure, if this:
"if you figure this stuff out on one harp in any key, it's the same for all 12 harps in all 12 keys"
applies to this:
"On a C harp, you can get a G minor pentatonic scale, G major pentatonic scale, G blues scale, and G mixolydian scale very easily with no OBs, only bends (and you can actually get the G Mixolydian scale w/o any bending in the upper register)"
I understand therefore: I can get those scales,not only on a C harp but on every 2d pos. playing harp?
Last Edited by on May 13, 2012 9:52 AM
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hvyj
2392 posts
May 13, 2012
10:14 AM
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@laurent: Yes, you can get all those scales on ANY Richter tuned harp in second position BUT, what KEY those scales will be in depends on what key harp you are playing. If you are playing a C harp, each of those scales will be in G. If you are playing an F harp, each of those scales will be in C. A harp, those scales will be in E. D harp=A, Eb harp=Bb, G harp=D, etc.
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AV8R
165 posts
May 13, 2012
10:27 AM
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Thanks for the responses-Yikes!
@hvyj If the song was in G, and I played the pentatonic blues scale with an E harp, would that get me there?
Also, are there any well known harp players or blues harp tunes that use the major scale that I could listen to?
Thanks
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timeistight
559 posts
May 13, 2012
10:50 AM
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I'm not sure what you mean by "pentatonic blues scale," but G on an E harp puts you in 10th position; I don't think that's what you want. You'd need overblows just to play the tonic.
Last Edited by on May 13, 2012 10:56 AM
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hvyj
2394 posts
May 13, 2012
11:03 AM
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@AV8R: I think you've got your keys backwards. If the tune is in G major and you use a C harp, you can play minor pentatonic scale in E and you will sound fine, because you will be in the relative minor of G and will be using the same notes as are in the G major pentatonic scale. In general, you can also play E blues scale and be fine because that just adds a 5b in E which will be the same note as the 3b in G. If you do this, you will be playing as if you were playing in fifth position. But it works just fine in second position.
FWIW, there is another scale called the major blues scale which adds the 3b to the notes of the major pentatonic scale. So, the blues scale in E has the same notes as the major blues scale in G, just starting on B2 (instead of D2/3B) for the tonic. So yeah, E blues scale will usually work over G major.
But, if you want to play G minor in fifth position you would use an Eb harp. But i don't really think that's what you were trying to ask.
Mickey Raphael, the harp player for Willie Nelson does a lot of cool major key stuff.
Last Edited by on May 13, 2012 11:15 AM
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AV8R
166 posts
May 13, 2012
5:23 PM
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Thanks Hvyj, I will do some searches for Mickey Raphael.
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hvyj
2405 posts
May 13, 2012
7:55 PM
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I think some of Lee Oskar's stuff with War is major pentatonic. SBW (Rice Miller) will throw in some major pentatonic here and there as he moves through chord changes. Charlie McCoy uses major pentatonic a lot, but he also does some cool minor stuff in 5th position.
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whiskey&harmonicas
31 posts
May 14, 2012
4:45 AM
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For the record, timeistight, there is an additional scale based on the minor pentatonic. it's called the Blues Scale; which is the Minor Pentatonic with an additional note. Used for playing a bass guitar.
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timeistight
562 posts
May 14, 2012
7:23 AM
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For the record, W&H, the blues scale isn't a pentatonic scale; it has six notes!
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HarpNinja
2420 posts
May 14, 2012
7:43 AM
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This is why I like the notion of learning to play from 3rd position rather than 2nd with an ET harp. If you can play 3rd, then you can play 12th...which means you have both minor and major playing worked out.
The same can be said of playing 2nd and 5th...relative majors/minors rule! Granted, it is fairly easy to learn 2nd major/minor and go from there, but if you're looking for bang for the buck playing relative majors/minors is the way to go.
IMO, though, if you use certain tunings or inntonations, it doesn't work so well.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Mods
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
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Piro39
30 posts
May 14, 2012
7:49 AM
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hvyj: I little correction on your post probably a typo the major third in 3rd postion is 2D* not 2D**.
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hvyj
2406 posts
May 14, 2012
8:16 AM
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@Piro39: Yeah, thanks for picking that up. I'll correct it.
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hvyj
2407 posts
May 14, 2012
8:24 AM
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"IMO, though, if you use certain tunings or inntonations, it doesn't work so well."
For example, B2 and B5 (and B8) are the tonic in 5th position. D5 and D9 are the tonic in 12th position. If your harp has a compromise tuning in which these notes are tuned flat, well...you get the idea. Hard to play in tune in those positions.
Last Edited by on May 14, 2012 6:26 PM
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HarpNinja
2421 posts
May 14, 2012
8:46 AM
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Exactly...you can always flatten a reed when playing, but you can't make them blow sharp!
The innotnation is very relevant to this topic as if you begin to play different pentatonics on one harp, you can run into problems.
For example, on a Special 20, you are going to be 12 cents flat on your tonic for 12th, which is also your flat 3 in 3rd. If you are playing 3rd position blues over Dominant 7 chords, it is going to sound too minor and not like a blue third.
In 12th, your major 7th is going to be 14 cents flat! My point being that with certain compromises, playing multiple pentatonics or scales can get hairy.
I like the Crossover tuning most the time as I don't play a lot of 5th (and the tonic would be -5 cents). It doesn't sound too off in 12th, but I don't play very hard and don't flatten it any extra.
If you are playing with a band and doing 1-3 sets a night, it can be advantageous to mix things up playing blues in different positions or with different scales - I find it harder to do with harps that stray from ET or close to it.
There are other ways of doing this more methodically, but I like knowing I can play the harmony of the song and follow the changes and sound in tune more readily. I guess the whole chording thing throws me as I don't hear too much of that when hearing harp in bands anyways. I hear much more tongue slapping and octaves around melody lines than "chords". When people chord, I hear more short bursts than anything, and regardless of inntonation there can be beating based on how they play the chord.
I think a great example of this is Jason's vids with Big Al.
Going back to the OP, though, the easiest route is to learn various scales from one position and how they relate. Assuming you're fluent in the 2nd position blues scale, you just stop bending notes and you have the Mixolydian mode. Skip a couple notes of that and you have the major pentatonic.
I think in terms of target notes and avoid tones. Since most music I play is based off of D7 chords, you can't really hit a wrong note, but there are some worth hitting more/harder than others.
It is hard to follow due to his speed, but John Popper plays a lot of 2nd position major and weaves in and out of minor sounds as well.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Mods
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
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hvyj
2409 posts
May 14, 2012
9:15 AM
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"If you are playing with a band and doing 1-3 sets a night, it can be advantageous to mix things up playing blues in different positions or with different scales"
Yeah...3-4 sets a night and the harp can get sounding pretty monotonous and repetitive if the harp player stays in 1 or 2 positions all night long. For virtuoso players this may not be as much of a problem, but the rest of us mere mortals can start to be a pain in the ass to listen to over 3 or 4 hours without changing it up.
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HarpNinja
2424 posts
May 14, 2012
10:35 AM
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I think it is a problem for virtuoso players too. Many of them, the headliners anyways, aren't playing three hours but one or two.
I believe we continually get caught up in hypothetical situations that aren't very reality based. The average gigging player is either doing 1-2 hours of headline work or 3-4 hours of featured.
For the majority of blues players, who make up most of us, I doubt their is much variation in the music over that stretch. Meaning, 3-4 hours of the same thing with little variation. Not even full-time original bands have to play 3-4 hours of their stuff (which would probably sound pretty repetitive too.
Any band worth a crap that is doing more than an hour of originals, again, most of us aren't if we are on this board and gigging, is going to need to know 50+ songs to gig continually (say once a week at 4-6 different venues). Assuming you want to make a concerned effort to put on a great show think about the following - and I am guessing that most blues bands doing 3x1 hour sets a night aren't hugely successful and are playing small bars so they aren't really drawing most the crowd or retaining them beyond 1-2 sets...
36 songs divided by 3 sets is 12 songs a set (usually about an hour of play time)
Harmonica player solos on 2/3 and plays only rhythm parts on 1/3
So you take solo leads in 8 songs - even at 2 turns each solo, you are talking 16 twelve-bar progressions (accounts for an instrumental or some songs with hooks, or solos of different lengths, etc)
For arguments sake, let's say you pretty much replay the same set three times, including the type of leads you play, which are generally improvised...
You need to be able to play 8ish really strong leads a night...point being, you can "coast" and fool a lot of people if you can play 8 solid extended solos and fit them with some variation into 3 sets.
That isn't a lot IF you know how to improvise. However, if it is the same thing over and over or you copy/paste rehearsed solos, you go from playing the same 8 songs 3 times a night to 24. BORING!!!! This is generally hard to avoid in a number of blues bands because of the similarity between grooves, lack of vision for a live show, frequent soloing, or lack of vocabulary.
If you generally play a rhumba the same way and spread them throughout the night, hardly anyone will know/care. If they even hear you play all three, they either already like you or have to be there regardless or aren't listening to begin with.
I realize math states that there is infinite ways of using the blues scale in songs so that you never sound repetitive, or get boring, but I have yet to hear ANYONE play 3-4 hours of improvised music without eventually sounding the same in every song who has tried that.
IMO, you only need to be able to play 8-12 blues based leads with a fresh take on each to be awesome. One of the easiest ways to do that is to mix up note choice by any variety of means.
Finally, think of the LISTENER. The vast majority are nowhere near your understanding of the intricacies of your performance. A 12 bar shuffle is a 12 bar rhumbas, as western people tend to be exposed most to melody and not rhythm. A 16 bar, or vamp, or whatever, is all going to sound similar to begin with.
Most blues musicians act like minimalists, so you are getting the same drum tones, bass tone, guitar tones, and harmonica tones all night long...in a format that at its very core is going to sound familiar song to song.
This is coming from someone whose favorite bluesmen are Otis Taylor and RL Burnside. Both of them are pretty much one-trick ponies to an extent. You expect the same thing song to song, BUT they are only playing an hour or two as featured artists in that format (I would argue even then they find fresh moments in shows).
Scales
Positions
Mics
Embochure
Octaves
Amped/acoustic
Diatonic/chromatic
Effects
All ways to keep things insteresting. Shit, I have almost 8 things listed. Here is a way to think of variation in your 8 leads a set (in no real order):
1. Amped 2nd position blues short solo
2. Acoustic 2nd position blues with hand effects
3. Minor blues in 3rd
4. Chromatic blues (even I can fake a song in 3rd)
5. 2nd position major OR minor - not blues scale
6. 1st position in the upper octave
7. 2nd position blues with an octave effect
8. Amped 2nd position blues long solo
I literally have a script for the pacing of a solo set and full band set and purposely set them up to avoid doing the same thing over and over. I am trying to focus more on how I start and end songs with a looper so it isn't always the same...when I was in a blues band, nearly every song was started by the guitar player. The begining and end of every song sounded the same....hell, even the arrangements were the same...guitar intro, vocals, vocals, harp, vocals, guitar out.
BORING!
***EDIT
The musical moments are scripted, but the performance is not. For example, I am going to start the show with 1-3 middle of the road/tempo songs followed by a real crowd pleaser. The leads are improvised, but there are musical moments within those three tunes. For example, one might be a popular cover, one might be a good 3rd position song, and one might be played acoustically.
Basically, I am going to avoid doing the same basic approach more than two songs in a row. If I just played two amped 2nd position leads using the blues scale, I am NOT going to do that in the next tune.
Rhythm playing and not playing are entirely different considerations.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Mods
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
Last Edited by on May 14, 2012 10:41 AM
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hvyj
2410 posts
May 14, 2012
11:26 AM
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PEDALS, if used intelligently and with discretion can help achieve diverse voicings.
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HarpNinja
2427 posts
May 14, 2012
11:31 AM
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Every harp player should have access to delay and at least one modulation whether it be an octave effect, auto wah, or rotary speaker emulator.
If I had it all to do over again, I'd just play a pedal board with those and a Lone Wolf Harp Attack to the PA.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Mods
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
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HarpNinja
2428 posts
May 14, 2012
11:51 AM
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I really hijacked this thread, my bad.
I think the best way to do this is, if you are fluent in blues harp in 2nd, continue learning new scales/modespentatonics in 2nd.
Then, learn to apply it based on what you're playing. With Albert, he was playing against a lot of D7 and minor chords, hence the blues scale being so effective. The blues scale will work over D7 and minor chords all day.
If you listen to what is being played behind Dickie, the Allmans are playing changes that include a lot of major chords, or relative major playing, in addition to D7 chords (and other minor and modal variations, but that is besides the point).
Both Albert and Dickie end up playing over a lot of D7 chords. The Mixolydian mode, which adds some major sounding tones like a major 3rd and the 6th (not in the blues scale) fits a D7 chord just as well as the blues scale.
So my advice is to learn the Mixolydian mode in 2nd and start emphasizing some of those major sounding notes to get a more major feel (without having to sound too major over D7 chords). The thing with the major pentatonic is you don't have the same overlap with the blues scale and you might sound too major over D7 chords...it doesn't work as nice over blues.
Blues Scale
2 3' 4+ 4' 4 5 6+
Minor Pent.
2 3' 4+ 4 5 6+
Mixolydian
2 3" 3 4+ 4 5+ 5 6+
Major Pent
2 3" 3 4 5+ 6+
All of those will work over a D7 progression, but the major pentatonic gives you less to work with and doesn't help imply harmony with the chord (probably articulating it that poorly), or give you a bluesy feel.
Think of the Mix. as your home base for Dominant chords. When you want to make your solo sound bluesier, throw in the missing blue notes. When you want it to sound more major, throw out the blue notes.
While I can take this approach, what I generally do is play 3rd for minor and 12th for major as they note layout/patterns are identical between the two and naturally sound minor and major, whereas 2nd lets me sound between the two.
***Edit
When playing 2nd in most scenarios, I think I play the Mixolydian mode and then bend for inflection. My blues scale would look more like:
2 3" 3' 3 4+ 4' 4 5+ 5 6+
If I wanted a major feel I would just not play 3' or 4'. I would play the 5 draw assuming it was over a Dominant chord.
I hardly ever play the major 7th regardless of position/song.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Mods
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
Last Edited by on May 14, 2012 11:55 AM
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hvyj
2411 posts
May 14, 2012
12:16 PM
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Mixolydian mode, second position, upper register:
B6 D6 D7 B7 D8 B8 D9 B9
Major pentatonic scale, second position, upper octave:
B6 D6 D7 D8 B8 B9
Last Edited by on May 14, 2012 12:24 PM
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HarpNinja
2431 posts
May 14, 2012
12:23 PM
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That's the whole reason I think in terms of Mixolydian. I started trying to play John Popper stuff and learned to play the upper register right away. Those notes layout perfectly in Mixolydian for playing rock music. I bet I played a full year before starting to learn blues stuff. I sucked balls, but it was fun.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Mods
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
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whiskey&harmonicas
32 posts
May 14, 2012
1:58 PM
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timeistight - tell that to the people who write the Mel Ray music books. The Blues Scale is the Minor Pentatonic (5 notes) with an additional, thus making it 6 notes.
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timeistight
571 posts
May 14, 2012
3:34 PM
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Sure, and the Dorian mode is a minor pentatonic plus a major second and sixth, but that doesn't make Dorian a pentatonic scale.
Pentatonic means five notes. The blues scale is a hexatonic (i.e., six-note) scale. Look it up.
Last Edited by on May 14, 2012 3:39 PM
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Piro39
31 posts
May 14, 2012
6:15 PM
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@hvyj:D7 and D9 are the tonic in 12th position. I think you have another typo here. It should read D5 and D9 and also D2**
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hvyj
2413 posts
May 14, 2012
6:24 PM
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Yeah, I did it again: D5, I'll correct it. I didn't mention D2** because that's a bend which can be intonated.
And, while we are on the subject of intonation, I've been under the impression that if one's instrument enables one to do so, the blues scale is intonated differently than the minor pentatonic scale besides having that additional 5b. As I understand it, in the blues scale the 3b is played as a "blue third" (not quite a half step flat) and the 7b is played as a blues 7th or harmonic 7th which is a little flatter than a half step flat. But, of course you can't do that on a piano.
Last Edited by on May 14, 2012 6:37 PM
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