I've been trying to play on a harp rack - and finding it very tough to coordinate. Usually I totally lose the timing or forget what chords I'm playing as soon as I blow the harp. The drum track on the first tune seemed to help me keep it more together. On the second one it's more turn-taking than playing in unison. Any tips on coordinating harp and guitar greatly appreciated!
First off I think you sound pretty good. It lacks the fluid flow but that is to be expected when you start something new. think of them as 2 different players instead of you doing both and hear them playing all in sync. I do this with playing a real drum kit on my feet, the harp in a rack, vocals, and keys, all at once. I feel like a real band is playing instead of just me-in plain eglish- simply enjoy what you are doing and get deep into it without juding it. I remember hearing recordings of my early playing and going"man it sounds all out of sync but when I was playing it, it felt all in sync." That is the main thing- enjoy the journey and you will feel all in sync. I have been living this philosphy since I first started making music and it hss gottem me to this place throughout the journey. When I find a new thing like you are here I immediately take it onstage at my gigs/record and share it. Why? Because it is exciting to me. Sure it is raw, and out of wack, but my energy is honest and people dig it to the point I have continually gotten to play on the same level stages as the big names an played with many of the greats even though I was no where near their level of musicianship. Fear of mistakes, rejection, riddicule, seem to keep most players from letting their true self emerge. Instead they surround themselves with lots of technique that are heralded as great by most but usually lacks real flow to my soul.
Unfortunately there is no short cut to getting a true natural/smooth groove. Time is the key. This forum is full of guys that possess lots of skills they have learned through blueprint like instruction, but lack the fluidness that comes from only tons of time playing. So many guys are always looking for shortcuts. You can find many and they will produce sounds of nice but the fluid groove, flow of conciousness, can't be shortcutted. Let your sound unfold on its own. Forcing it with mechanical shortcuts will only set you way back in this quest but will fool the average joe into thinking you are a hell of a player. I guess you have to choose what path to follow. Keep it up and enjoy the journey because when it is all said and done, the only person that really materes with your music is you! Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
That's a pretty good effort Jodan! This is something I would like to do more of myself as I've only managed to do a couple of vids with a guitar and rack harp.
The thing is I find it tricky myself timing-wise. It's a bit like the old 'tap the top of your head while you draw circles on your belly' and such timing co-ordination is not my strong suit.
I think at the outset it's best to keep it simple by just bashing out some simple chords in time and then try to lay simple harp riffs over the top and repeat it over and over until the proces feels more natural. It seems you have to get to a point where one of the instruments is on auto-pilot.
I have never felt that comfortable wearing a harp rack and I feel tense and not really in control of the harp. I even tried mounting the harp on a mic stand and that felt a lttle bit better.
It will be interesting to hear from regular rack player like Walter and Old Wailer about how their technique evolved.
I am totally in awe of players such as Jimi Lee. How does he do that???
I am totally in awe of players such as Jimi Lee. How does he do that???
Easy- just do it and keep doing it. Also, devote your life to it. There is no 1 foot in and 1 foot out. That is the simplicity of it all. Jump in with 2 feet and it is easy. You will have no idea where your life is going. You can't chart this like a career. It unfolds its own way and you have to blindly follow it. 1 in and 1 out makes for a very uptight thing from an artistic dimension because the mind is always in control when the day is done. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
I agree. The desire has to be there in the first place to want to commit to it. I'm not in that place at the moment as the consideration of difficulty outweighs the desire to do it.
I know from the perspective of playing harp and guitar seperately which I enjoy immensly the amount of work that is required to improve skill levels. Every budding player starts at his own place with his natural gifts, some being more naturally gifted than others. For those with less natural gifts the work ethic has to be even greater to progress to a target.
I do think though that Jimi Lee is a natural and a phenomenon, although I appreciate he must have put in a considerable amount of work developing his technique. ---------- Grey Owl YouTube Grey Owl Abstract Photos
Greyowlphotoart: If he moves you, he moves you! I find his playing to busy. It leads to no where to go after a few minutes for me. But, like I have said here many times, art is strictly a subjective thing. That is the coolest part of doing art. If it moves you, it is a masterpiece because a masterpiece in its true senes, is simply something that moves somebody. From an artist point of view, often what they feel is a masterpiece is often ignored and stuff they do and feel not so good is viewed as a masterpiece. For me, if someone feels so and so is the king then they are. As far as natural talent goes, I am of no opinion. I just know what interests me I persue. Be free and let your heart shine! Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
Good advice, Walter - it's too easy to beat yourself up over minor frustrations and forget why you're playing in the first place. I'm a pretty ropey guitar player - I get more of a kick playing harp. The cool thing is, playing harp is getting me more interested in playing the guitar. I much prefer to back myself up than to play with a jam track (although jam tracks obviously sound a lot more professional and are definitely a good learning tool). It's just that I don't feel I've got any control over a jam track - at least with the guitar if I want to suddenly play quiet, I can play quiet; if I want to throw in a break, I can throw in a break. It sounds rough but it feels a lot more inspiring. Greyowl: totally agree with you about the timing thing. Patting the head and rubbing the belly is exactly what it's like.
Harmonicanick: Eddie Martin is great. I'm pretty much obsessed with the YouTube clip of him playing Little Queen of Spades.
jodanchudan: I hear you! I started out wanting to be just a harp player. The first band I joined needed a singer so I sang. Then I kept getting too frustrated trying to explain the guitar I wanted to hear so I taught myself the guitar. Same with the bass player so I use my thumb and fingers to get bass out of the guitar at the same time as the rhythm/lead stuff. Next the drummer was an ongoing problem so I figured the drums on my feet. I always like the keys and fiddled with them for hours at clubs before and after gigs (most had one onstage). Next I got tired of the cost and stress of recording studios and am teaching myself how to record in my studio. We bought our house because of the detached building on the propety. It is as big as our 800sq ft house. That kind of tells you how I got to being a 1 man band. I have no desire to go back to a real band except for an occasional session/gig with a few players I dig playing with. It is amazing what one can do when the root of their life is to be able to play their music 24/7 with no outside constraints :-)! Walter
You said the harp is making you want to play guitar more. For me, it is making good sounding recordings that keeps me playing for the past 10 years. Live gigs use to be me my entire life. Now they are not very interesting unless the scene is right. You never know how the story will play out if you follow it blindly! ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
I too pursue what interests me and like yourself, goals and what satisfies can change as life progresses.
My association with the harmonica is now a rejuvinated hobby and I am always interested in developing my playing whether it be on harmonica or guitar and I am prepared to work hard on this but in my case this is one small part of my life not the be all and end all.
My interest in guitar + harp rack is of a casual interest and from experience I don't feel I have a natural aptitude for this combination as I am rythmically challenged in this sense :)>
If my desire was intense and unhindered by other life challenges I have no doubt I could improve with this setup but I would rather invest the time in improving on the instruments separately and thoroughly enjoying my music.
We all have our goals and if you have acheived fulfilment on your chosen musical course I am very happy for you.
I am appreciative of Jimi Lee's ability and I don't like everything he does but like in the recent Howard Levy thread you can appreciate someone being a class act without necessary liking their approach.
Not posting this to try and change your mind, but just for interest here is a clip of Jimi Lee in more subdued form. Tasty!
"It will be interesting to hear from regular rack player like Walter and Old Wailer about how their technique evolved."
WOW! To be mentioned in the same sentence with Walter as a "regular rack player" is very flattering!
I don't know that I can be much help in giving advice on how to develop a technique with the rack--I think Walter already covered it--just put in the time.
I took some lessons from Terry "Harmonica" Bean a couple of years ago--his advice on this subject was great--he said (Paraphrasing) "just put the rack and a harp on every time you sit down to play--even if you're just noodling around or practicing guitar stuff. Get used to having it there until you find that you're looking all over the house for it and find it around your neck."
One thing that I find is that I can't play harp and guitar together well until I have the guitar part totally welded into my finger memory. This sometimes might take longer for me than you could imagine--most of the music I play harp with--the Piedmont blues stuff--is music I have been playing and enjoying since the late 60's and early 70's! I don't mean that it has to take 40 years--but I do need that guitar part down to where I can play it in my sleep--then adding the harp is easy--I just play pretty much what I would sing--or harmonies to what I would sing--and sometimes things that I wish I could sing.
My biggest problem with playing harp on a rack with guitar is the timing--I have a strong tendency to speed up during a tune. I like to just tap my foot loudly, or even use a stomp box better than a backing track--that helps--but the damn foot can speed up too--for me, there is no substitute for playing with a goddamn metrafuc*ing-gnome pounding into a headset--I don't like it--but I have to do it once every week or so for a half hour or so to reset my inner clock.
Also, bend that rack around until the tilt of the harp is the same as you would hold it in your hands--that helps a lot with getting a better tone--which is always a big problem with rack playing.
Finally, here is a video by Richard Sleigh on rack playing--I like to watch this every now and then--he makes some good points, and I admire his playing a lot. . .
Some great rack performances here... Thanks for posting!
I find that for me, it helps to think like a drummer with my guitar playing. Richard's video above is great and a really good approach for finding the core of a groove or riff that you can settle into on guitar and maybe free up some bandwidth for the harmonica part of your brain to skittle around and be brilliant on top of.
Of course, someone like Walter who CAN play a kick and snare drum, the rest of a kit, at the same time as playing guitar and harp while singing original lyrics, and recording live, has an advantage. Plus he can get some great tone on the rack!
I've played a racked harp most of my music & performing life with either a guitar, banjo, or sometimes, mandolin/ bouzouki occupying my right and left hands. Sometimes when I get to jam with just the harp, no rack, and use my hands I feel like I've been let out of prison and there is so much more I can to!!
I frequently play an open DADGAD tuning a lot on guitar for sessions, (which gives a really rich deep drone on the open D string).
One good exercise or jam setup I like is to find a "Bo Diddly" kind of rhythm on the guitar (: Dant, Dant, Dant, Da Dan Dant :) at a nice medium tempo. Then work through a standard I,IV,V blues chord progression, start adding harmonica chuggs on top in the same rhythm, and once that's all solid, launch into some riffs and solos.
Also fun to just drop out on guitar and keep time with muted strings playing the same rhythm, (like you are playing a washboard), and take a wailing harmonica solo.
But trying to make the guitar behave like a Drum kit, (kick, snare, hi hat) seems to work for me as an auditory sort of "wicker basket" to help carry the harmonica along.
@harmonicanick: Your mate Eddie is awesome! Don't tell him that he is playing the harmonica upside down :)
Please excuse me Jodan if this is taking the topic off track a bit.
@Old wailer Thanks a lot, that was useful advice. Wearing the rack feels pretty unnatural to me at present. I'm either getting the feeling of chasing it or if I bring it in real close to compensate it feels like I'm wearing a dental Jaw Brace which restricts my glancing down at the guitar fretboard!
Your point :- "Also, bend that rack around until the tilt of the harp is the same as you would hold it in your hands--that helps a lot with getting a better tone--which is always a big problem with rack playing."
could be very relevant for me as I have noticed I hold the harp quite a bit off parralel with my mouth and maybe this is why it feels so weird to me when the rack holds it level.
Greyowlphotoart: Thanks for sharing that video. He can play no doubt, but it isn't my cup of tea. With the rack being uncomfortable, I messed with mine for years and it never felt right until I finally one day realized- hell, I've been playing harp in a rack for like 20 years and it feels ok. I still and probably always will use the $8 bob dylan like rack. I like to be able to move my head around with the harp in my mouth.
I know there are some high dollar adjustable racks out there but I will venture to say that it will just take lots of time. Play stuff on the guitar you know inside out so you don't have to think about it. I only knew the E chord for a year or so. I would do changes with my voice and harp and that worked fine because it was all I knew. It must of sounded ok because the Dead Kennedys came up to me while I was blasting away under a tree at a college campus and asked me to open for them that night. I had no idea who they were or how they played. You can imagine my amazement when I walked in to the gig with them and a couple thousand people were cheering. They cheered for my 45 minute set of 1 chord guitar. It isn't what you know but how you play it and how honest you play it. If you are a tinkerer you can have lots of fun messing with harp rack angles! Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
@Greyowl--yes, the Sennenhouser rack does adjust for tilt--but it's way expensive and I don't even know if you can still get them out of Germany since the online company that used to sell them went out of business.
I have found that it helps my playing a lot--but I also understand what Walter is saying--just get used to it--but I definitely bend them around some--I have 5 racks of various kinds--but I would never use the old ones now that I have a Sennenhouser. . . ----------
My problem with positioning the harp in the right place is that it interferes with me singing close to the mike . . . And if I put a mike on the rack (and I do for some things), it makes a big noise everytime I change harmonicas (which is more frequently than some here LOL). I sometimes crane my neck and sing around the rack, that looks pretty stupid . . . But I am primarily a guitar player (48 years) so it's pretty easy to concentrate on harp when I try to do both--which is good, since I am using so many alternate tunings.
Last Edited by on Apr 30, 2012 10:48 AM
