It`s a lot of work to learn a solo note for note and some people do this well but what do you think of this if you don`t take it any further.is this copycat or just lack of improv. ability...i see a lot of old jazz men who play around lots of instrumentals and make it their own thing. so isn`t improvisition and art form...
Play what you want and don't get too caught up in what other players view as your artistic merit.
Also, consider the context. I don't know too many touring pros who play composed solos. I know people used to say Carlos Del Junco did as such, but I've never heard evidence of that. In fact, a lot of his music is based on specific leads (done often in tandem with guitar) and I wouldn't consider them solos.
People mention the same about Rod Piazza, but again, I've never heard evidence. I don't think having strong arrangements as a band with some composed instrumentation is a bad thing. In fact, too many people wing it.
I don't dig a lot of classical music, but that is almost always based on playing something note for note.
For people playing to jam tracks or webcams, I view it just like I do playing a song in all 12 keys on one harmonica. If, I infact, take any "issue" with copying things note for note, it is when it directly contradicts someone's other comments about performing music...at that point, it has nothing to do with the music and more the bias towards someone or something.
For example, if you hold someone's playing like Dennis Gruenling in the highest regard, but then insist that performing other people's improvised solos note for note for others is really important, I don't get it. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
Call that the Mojo Card. People play the Mojo Card all the time - the notion that that is what the "real" blues men were about, etc, in contradictory contexts. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
To learn solos is MUCH MORE then about the notes, the quicker a player figures that out they will advance considerably mentally as a musician as well as physical abilities... Everyone I know learns solos to strengthen their improvisation skills!
Completely agree, Frank. This whole thing is a total non-issue. Gruenling surely spent a lot of time learning note for note - and that must feed into his improvisation. Guyger says he always plays 'Steady' (or it could be 'Sharp Harp') the same way. Sometimes he plays note for note; sometimes he improvises. Wow - you can do both without causing widespread harm! It's only an issue for the musically insecure or for those who are hairtriggered to be offended by stuff that isn't about them.
Many "old jazz men" have spent a lot of time transcribing the solos of the "old jazz men" that came before them. That doesn't mean they'll play them in public, but part of jazz education is the note-for-note study of the playing of the masters.
I think copying solos note for note can be the building blocks of improvisation. At first when learning a solo it seems to be all about the notes....Have I got the ability to play a given solo, often at first it seem that the answer may well may be no...but after breaking it down in small chunks it suddenly seems acheivable.
When it eventually becomes playable you begin to realise you've only reached base camp. You begin to appreciate the solo on a deeper level and notice subtle nuances in expression, tone changes, tempo, dynamics and emotion etc., and that's where the challenge intensifies.
Most times you can't get as close as you would like but you learn a heck of a lot along the way and this journey begins to shape your own playing style as you assimilate riffs, tone and phrasing from other players. Eventually you hope this will produce the 'It sounds like me' I want to sound like.
The end result can sound as close to one of the greats you can possibly get or an amalgam of several players you admire. 'Different strokes for different folks' and all that.
Learning solos is not wasted effort and can aid improvisational skills. However as with a lot of things in life it's not the only way and others may find a diffferent approach more helpful.
There is nothing wrong with copying as a tool. In fact, it is one of - if not the best - way to learn. However, replicating someone's work as the end goal (or as a judgement of someone's ultimate value as a musician) seems contradictory to
1.) what the original players were doing - they didn't call it traditional at the time, in fact, it was groundbreaking
2.) typical reactions to similar practices in the non-blues genre
3.) hostility towards those not doing it their way, and there is an abundance of evidence on this board suggesting that fundamentalists are much quicker to act out in a harsh manner compared to non-fundamentalists when neither side is ultimately right or wrong
4.) who is supported as a contemporary blues stud and why
5.) expectations of listeners
6.) what makes current gigging players successful...I am talking about musicians playing things beyond jams, etc.
IMO, for a player to really be great, they need to take a set of listener expectations and deliver their goods in a unique way. The easiest route to this is to master the idiom, by doing things like copying, and then learning to make it your own. However, it can be done without making that the bulk of practice or presentation. This has been documented several times - artists have openly shared stories about copying and then innovating, and others have talked about taking a different path (or less conventional) from the start.
The use of technology, in some ways, has created a niche for copy/paste type playing as a primary means of performance - the classic woodshed YouTube, for example. If you do that or dig that, that is totally fine. It just shouldn't be confused for something it is not when the focus is playing great traditional blues harmonica.
One of the corner stones of blues is the reinterpretation of a classic. Our expectations of the greats is to pay tribute to the past...not a replication.
Someone has posted in another thread about the frustration in learning a tune note for note and then trying to play it with a band. IMO, this is a key component in the argument of having to do more than copy/paste. If you really believe in the mojo of the blues, that blues is a feeling, and so on and so forth, then you HAVE to consider the HUMAN and EMOTIONAL factors.
The big question than becomes, how is copy/pasting as a way of performing - and not just practicing - any different than playing scales, playing technically, using music theory, etc?
I started playing when I was five. When I was age 11 or 12, I was old enough to do stuff by myself. So my mother dropped me off at the Elk River Public Library and I'd spend the whole day there listening to records. lot of Duke Ellington, Count Basie, Coltrane and the like. I listened to jazz for hours, which is weird because jazz doesn't quite have that hold on me anymore, but I also got into the blues. The first blues record I ever heard was this Rice Miller collection, "The Real Folk Blues." I couldn't get enough of it. I bought it on cassette, I listened to it on the Sony Walkman as I mowed the grass, whatever I was doing I listened to it. First blues song I ever played was "Checking Up on My Baby," which I thought was the coolest thing since sliced bread. I worked for months on that and used to play it at school and stuff. There was no internet back then, and there were no other harmonica players around anywhere, so it was all on the hoof and by the ear. There was a point in my late teens where I stopped thinking about doing stuff the same and thought more about doing stuff different. I was still copying stuff, but it wasn't harmonica. I did a lot of Lynyrd Skynyrd guitar lines and the like. During my senior year of college, I was playing with one of the guys who worked in the maintenance department - we played music and drank beer pretty much anytime I wasn't in class. All the songs we did were originals, except for Deep Ellem Blues, but it might as well have been an original to me because I'd never heard it (this was the earliest days of internet, no youtube). That was the point where I was writing my own solos, instead of copying them and when I wanted to learn a song (as opposed to doing it off the cuff) I would think "OK, how do I want to do this song?" That doesn't mean I was ignoring everybody else. Instead of trying to learn this solo note for note and matching tones, I would hear or see something and think, I'd like to do that. (fast forwarding a few years) Of all things I could have studied from Jason Ricci's playing style, I spent two years watching his hands. I watched some of the acoustic Youtubes closely, but whenever Jason would drop by or something and he'd be playing my eyes were glued, I mean GLUED to his hands. Or my grandpa, the greatest musician I ever knew, he had this way of hitting a flatted note on the mandolin in a slur that would send a chill down your spine and seemed to suspend time itself. I can hit it right on a mandolin, I to actually sit down and work on it to hit it on harmonica, but I'll get it. The coolest thing he did was hit a flatted third with this really crazy slur that went out of time for a brief instant. I started learning theory, which helped me more than anything else. The last thing I tried to sit down and copy on a harmonica note for note was Bill Monroe's Last Days on Earth. I did it on a chromatic. That one took a while, there were some double stops I couldn't recreate on a harmonica, but I think I came up with something that sounded good. I think overall it's important to at some point move on and make your own voice, the old guys did. When they did what they did, it was a revolution, they weren't copying what had been done before, they blazed their own trails. All those guys took what had been done before, found their own voice and moved on to create new things. I really believe that was their example to us. But in the end, if I believe it's all about finding your own voice, then I have to believe your voice can be whatever you want it to. Say what you wanna say however you want to say it.
i agree with your sentiments about this. I incorporate what music interests me from a variety of sources and try to make each song mine. I will use signature hooks, but otherwise play my own solos and invent my own comping. I acknowledge that every player has to choose the path that best suits them, and hone their skills in their own way. ----------
Yes, touring pros do play composed solos. Carlos and Rod do repeat solos note for note. However, it is their own composition they repeat, so the artistry is still strong (imo) because the solos are excellent musical ideas.
This is different from someone else memorizing a Carlos solo and playing it note for note as their own. This is thievery (imo).
The peril of this pursuit is .. what happens if you are playing someone's solo note for note and in the middle you forget where you are? what do you do then? It's like handling a string of pearls necklace and having the string break with all those pearls (notes) bouncing all over the floor.
---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by on Apr 10, 2012 5:31 AM
I`ve been playing 44 years and i did the woodshed thing for 10 yrs. mostly learning what i call the three main blues harp styles "Sonny Terry, Sonny Boy Williamson 2 and Little Walter.I play a lot but i really haven`t practiced harp for over 10 years,and most times I don`t know the next note coming out of the harp because it`s like i`m speaking in tongues.also i`ve been playing guitar 40 yrs. and i work on that all the time but just play harp no practice.we all develop our own thing,too cool...
Composing solos is different than copying the work of others and repeating it verbatim. It is also not very significant in isolation - these guys don't just do that.
Going back to the OP, while there is value in learning things by copying note for note, I think you are creating a very incomplete player if all you do is copy/paste when playing solos. Heck, even copying/pasting a variety of licks is more impressive as it applies to soloing. David Barrett teaches that as the primary template for improvising.
IMO, relying on a copy/paste format is very indicative of being a beginner as it pertains to harmonica brilliance. It is also inefficient and limiting at a certain point. Finally, it serves the same purpose as learning music theory, practicing theory, and trying to apply theory (in the vaccum of the woodshed).
Most of the comments here (including some I've made) have nothing to do with the original post and are a spillover from other issues. I encourage you to go back and read it.
The main question at hand is what do you think of learning to copy others without making it your own?
I think learning things note for note (such as solos or melodies) is a great EXERCISE. Sometimes, playing things like a melody can even be a great part of a performance (Chris Michalek did this all the time), so long as you make it your own.
If all you do is copy as your means of soloing/performing, you have mastered and applied a different approach to playing harmonica than those typically considered great at it. The greats generally copying as an EXERCISE and then play solos that they have composed themselves, whether spontaneous or predetermined.
I've always understood this. If I argue against anything related to this it is that ts MUST be study of just certain harmonica players, that is MUST be the bulk of practice, or that it MUST be to the point of complete assimilation of even an entire song.
While copying recorded solos is a valid method for learning another artist's technique, what it does NOT teach is a sense of improvisational interplay.
Unless you are working off a canned arrangement, if you are taking a solo with a good band, the other musicians will alter what they play in response to what you are doing in your solo. A good soloist will interact with that on the fly. One does not develop those interactive skills by learning to copy someone else's solo. Of course, the more musical ideas you have at your disposal the easier it is to interact on the fly and i suppose copying solos can be a catalyst for developing new musical ideas.
Learning a song as a whole is very important and absolutely essential to being able to solo effectively on that tune.
But as you solo over a particular tune, it is not uncommon for the rest of the band to alter what they are playing in response to what the soloist is doing. Then the soloist can feed off the alterations and alter what he is playing which may or may not provoke further interaction from the other musicians. It is from these interactions that creative improvisational musical expressions emerge.
Learning the song gives everyone in the band a solid foundation to work from and return to, but that's just the launching point for what goes on during a good solo break and the landing point for what happens after that solo and before the next one. Of course, if the band is working off a tight canned arrangement things happen differently. But, IMHO, it is the group interactive aspect of improvisation that provides the real excitement and stimulating musical expression during a solo break.
Definitely, without the spontaneous combustion of improvisational freedom during soloing within a band context, there would be no... WOW - there must be a God because this shit is inspired moments...
Last Edited by on Apr 10, 2012 10:24 AM
whatever turns you on. Whatever you are trying to do. Wherever you're at. Dig it, I've just been checking out the unearthed charts at triple j. There's some indie pop there that draws a lot of favourable reviews. Ho hum. Some of the guys I play with have just come back from touring Europe with their grind core band, NowyourFucked. They love playing a bit heavy and really fast and apparently lots of others like to listen to them. I can't even stand to be in the room with them. We did a song called rangaphile about people who love redheads. About 900 people like it. Probably at least an equal number don't like it. About 7 billion people aren't even aware of it. I like this, you don't. Hey let's talk it up! And let's dis everyone else while we're at it. Let's try to be intellectually superior and agonise about our creativity. Maybe I could feel offended and you could be bemused. Maybe we could make a song about it. Maybe I could do a dance to go along with it. If its a good song maybe the feeling we shared would be enhanced by the dance, or maybe it would just be my feeling and my dance. Maybe you'd look at me a bit cockeyed if I danced in a way you weren't expecting, and maybe I'd feel differently about things then. I'd probably get self conscious and wonder if I'd done the wrong thing, maybe I'd get defensive and think about why I should feel bad when you are the one with the problem. Maybe I'd put on a jerry McCain record and sink into the solace of that lovely harmonica tone that makes me feel good. Maybe I'd reach for my bullet mic and flick the switch on my Vibro champ, and jam out a few copycat licks over a JimiLee band cd. Maybe I'd even play along with big Walter and pretty soon be having a good time. Maybe I'd soon be thinking those cats who think I dance funny are ok really, they are just having they're own little dream of life, on they're own journey to the big dirt sleep. Agh, sleep, dream, sweet dreams all you funky cats and groovy chicks. ----------
Last Edited by on Apr 10, 2012 11:22 AM
here`s one, drop a hit of acid and plug into a big fender amp and blow your face out till the colors taste like the blues ! ! !!! I did many moons ago !!
Last Edited by on Apr 10, 2012 2:58 PM
speaking of acid, back in 73, while staying on the beaches of Goa, India, a guy called "The Doctor" would come around at night with a flashlight. He would say "Open up and say ahhh. One drop or two?" and would give you a drop or two of liquid acid. I spent the night on the beach with my knees pulled up, head between them, playing harmonica. Here is where I had major breakthroughs in understanding how to bend.
Also, regarding learning someone's solo note for note and then forgetting where you are in the middle, most players who are this type of musician will fumble where they lose the "string of the pearls" and sound pretty bad all of a sudden, having to rely on their own meager understanding of solo and/or improv. (Happened to me many a time in my formative years). ---------- The Iceman
And the other side of the coin beyond the formative years it's nothing that a little ingenuity can't reckon the situation with little fanfare, especially when it's a blues groove you've played a million times.
