Littoral
503 posts
Apr 09, 2012
11:55 AM
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I suspect my answer is that I have to use monitors but I need to ask anyway.
The bottom line is that my gear can't hang with the stage volume of guitar(s) bass and drums -not when they decide to really turn up. With monitors, of course, I'm ok. But I’d really like to be able to have enough headroom without monitors. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Here's my primary rig:
1960 Concert, Lone Wolf Delay, Astatic Bullet with an early Shure CM element.
All gear works and sounds great. My feedback threshold is about 5. My playing is precise, or certainly accurate enough that it isn't the issue in terms of cutting through a mix.
My own first answer, besides monitors, is to change mics for something with clearer fidelity. My bullet has a really smooth “round” tone that works with my emphasis on tongue blocking chords and notes. I have already decided to buy a 545 from Greg. That will help, a little.
Any thoughts?
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JInx
194 posts
Apr 09, 2012
12:05 PM
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find a new band. one sympathetic to the overall sound.
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Willspear
126 posts
Apr 09, 2012
12:05 PM
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Tip the amp with a stand or set it on something.
When I do a jam I have the same problem with a bassman and it is all in the amp firing at my legs and not ears so I use a stand or even a chair.
I rarely if ever have monitors in a jam and the stage is always crowded so I wind up standing almost ontop of my amp.
Also pays to play with other musicians who play feedback prone gear it forces the volume down to a level that is so much better.
Last Edited by on Apr 09, 2012 12:08 PM
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Kingley
1975 posts
Apr 09, 2012
12:11 PM
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A 1960 Concert with 4X10 speakers?
If so, then the band is way too loud in my opinion. I'd find a new band to play with.
Other than that I suggest getting the amp off the floor. That'll make it easier to hear. Putting it in a different location on stage might also help.
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HarpNinja
2310 posts
Apr 09, 2012
12:21 PM
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My guess is your band is way too loud and/or the amp is too close to the back of your legs to hear it.
Another issue, and you hint at it, is the overall tone of the rig and how it sits in the mix. Many harp players favor a dark and round tone with a fair amount of distortion. This gets eaten up by other instruments.
Guitar players often skimp on the bass and crank things like mids and treble for this very reason. It might be that things like bass and drums are covering up your sound.
To illustrate, try experimenting with your tone knobs. As you add mids/highs while keeping the volume control static, you'll swear you are getting louder.
The same can be said of the amount of gain and distortion in the tone. That can make it harder to cut through the mix.
Many people are going to assume a Concert on 5 is going to be way loud, but I realize that tubes, speakers, and condition of the wiring can be deceiving. It is possible that your amp is just not as loud as it could be and your overall eq makes it even darker/muddier.
A Concert on 3 with more treble might sound louder than a dark Concert at 5. FWIW, I've played with a number of rock bands with things like HG50's and Bassmans and can only remember turning either up to something like 5 twice. Once was in a room that could fit 2,000+ and the other was a huge outdoor bandshell that has a lot of national acts.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Mods
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
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MrVerylongusername
2316 posts
Apr 09, 2012
12:46 PM
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Mike makes some excellent points - it's not always about volume, it's about tonal range and where you sit in the mix. That's what a good soundman should be doing - making sure each instrument has its own discrete place in the mix.
The only thing I'd add, is that if I was getting lost in a mix, the first thing I'd do is take out wet effects like delay and reverb - they just push you further back in the overall sound. Put them back in in the FOH mix, via the mixer/fx rack if you really must.
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5F6H
1133 posts
Apr 09, 2012
1:45 PM
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Are you saying that you can turn up to "5" with all 12AX7 in the Concert? You say it is a '60, - early, mid, late (6G12 or 6G12A)? There might be tricks that can be employed on some models of Concert, not others...you could always add another amp?
Harpninja wrote: "Many people are going to assume a Concert on 5 is going to be way loud," I would assume that a Concert with the volume on "5", with a hi-Z CM/CR/Shure Dynamic/Astatic Xtal is broken (not so much with a lo-z dynamic wiyth in-line transformer, or an Astatic ceramic).
You can get a slightly later break up & better note separation/fidelity in a Brown Concert by installing EH KT90 power tubes & biasing to 8-15mA per tube. A 12AT7 in the PI (next to the power tubes) will accentuate the mids better, make the amp less woofy, might be too "skinny" for some tastes?
As Mr VLUN says, at the first sign of getting drowned out I would lose the delay.
It's definitely the case that the amp isn't loud enough, rather than it's OK in the mix FOH, just hard for you to hear on stage? If you go the monitor route you may find that you have to turn the amp way down to avoid feedback & solely rely on the monitor for foldback...I'd be more inclined to get the amp on stage loud enough for monitoring, then boost FOH volume by micing up.
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www.myspace.com/markburness
Last Edited by on Apr 09, 2012 1:46 PM
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Willspear
127 posts
Apr 09, 2012
1:53 PM
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The way I interpret the question is entirely a matter of stage volume not room or mix.
Mix wise I favor a brighter sound just for cutting qualities. My bassman I run with the bass on like 9-10 or so out of twelve and the treble and Mids around 4 each and the presence on like 9 or so mic depending. You mileage may vary.
I favor a hot 440sl which has slightly less rolled off eq in the upper end. I'd bet it rolls off at like 8k instead of 5k.
My experience with reverb Is that it buries the sound too easily. So I stick to delay.
The sonic maximizer really helps with definition in the mix. I use a kinder which adds a decent amount of cut. In a loud setting.
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7LimitJI
645 posts
Apr 09, 2012
2:06 PM
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The best solution is talk to the band.
We had did a gig with a soundman and everyone mic'd up.
The stage vol was low and the other members of the band commented what a good gig it was.
I commented it was because we could all hear each other and that the dynamics were great. So why could we not play at that level from then on.
It worked :o)
I'm the band leader and it was hard enough for me to get them to change.
I had been at them often enough before this too.
Ps I use a modded Kendrick Bassman, and its LOUD
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The Pentatonics Reverbnation
Youtube
"Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out".
"It's music,not just complicated noise".
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Littoral
504 posts
Apr 09, 2012
3:48 PM
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D. All of the Above
Thanks for the suggestions. My question was a general one but also prompted by a wedding gig this past weekend. Yeah, the band was really loud, but they were supposed to be and they seriously kicked ass. I needed 20% more. I did try these, -tilt, eq, and drop the delay. In hindsight it was impossible to hear how much any of it helped. I did mic my amp and stand where I could hear the mains. I certainly got out front but the band couldn't hear me.
I was the only one miked and the band used their stage volume to fill a big room full of dancing crazy people. In the middle of it all I thought about the time I saw Kim with 2 white Twins. If they miked their gear we could have maintained a stage volume I could have worked with but that's not what they do so I'm still trying to answer my question.
D. including another big amp.
Last Edited by on Apr 09, 2012 4:06 PM
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Littoral
505 posts
Apr 09, 2012
3:54 PM
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5F6H It's the first Concert, Jan. 60.
I don't follow this :
" I would assume that a Concert with the volume on "5", with a hi-Z CM/CR/Shure Dynamic/Astatic Xtal is broken (not so much with a lo-z dynamic wiyth in-line transformer, or an Astatic ceramic)."
Last Edited by on Apr 09, 2012 4:08 PM
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7LimitJI
646 posts
Apr 09, 2012
4:23 PM
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@Littoral
"I don't follow this :
" I would assume that a Concert with the volume on "5", with a hi-Z CM/CR/Shure Dynamic/Astatic Xtal is broken (not so much with a lo-z dynamic wiyth in-line transformer, or an Astatic ceramic)." "
A standard 100 % working,Concert or Bassman with a bullet mic, will not get above about 2 on the vol without feeding back.
Cold bias'ing to between 8mA and 15 will give you more vol, and is an easy reversible mod.
There are a few more worthwhile mods that will help, that would require a soldering iron.
If you are going to mod it Mark,5F6H is one of, if not the best tech for harp amps.His advice is good!
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The Pentatonics Reverbnation
Youtube
"Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out".
"It's music,not just complicated noise".
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Littoral
506 posts
Apr 09, 2012
6:18 PM
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Thanks, yeah, I know Mark knows his stuff.
Only 2 before feeding back? I had a RI Bassman way back and I seem to recall at least 5. I could be wrong though. I did have the amp serviced and re-tubed a few weeks ago. It sounds great but it's old as dirt so maybe not real efficient. Changing pre-amp tubes, re-bias, other mods are great ideas and I'll be more than happy to try them. Living in the serious boonies makes such things a little more complicated.
Great fishin though.
Last Edited by on Apr 09, 2012 6:22 PM
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walterharp
853 posts
Apr 10, 2012
8:51 AM
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Yeah, all of the above.. get that amp on a stand tilted toward your head, use the treble knob and sonic stomp. Strangely, ear plugs can help you hear yourself play harp
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