I see many posts on this forum referring to getting a bent note to be exactly Ab, C#, Db etc. I don't quite understand this in blues playing. There are even those who will use a tuner to make sure they are right on pitch. I've never bothered with any of that in my years of learning this 'insignificant instrument'. I could maybe understand this approach in concert training as an error would stand out like dogs testicles. It just seems a little anal to me. And the other thing I'm interested in, is I can't find much on the net to listen to in 5th position playing. I've been doing quite a bit of it lately but just need to find a few more licks.
I'm not all that technical, someone like Michael Rubin could no doubt explain the reasons why hitting a bent note to the correct pitch can be important, however I will offer this. Although in blues one is often bending into a note so to speak, when one is playing a specific melody, stay a standard with a very recognizable melody, and where the note doesn't actually exist naturally on the diatonic, you don't want to slide into it. You want to hit it spot on right off the bat.
Even in blues, if you think of the so called West Coast forms for example where horn riffs are played, again you don't have the luxury of creeping up on it. You have to be there right out of the box. This is particularly true if you're playing with a horn section. Playing as part of the horn section is something I really like to do and those cats come in through the front door not the back.
The more technique you have the more options you have, thus making you a better player. Besides, it ain't all that hard but it does take practice. ---------- LSC
Rick Estrin is a blues player that places a lot of his notes created through bending technique right on pitch. He will use 2 hole inhale first bend a lot where others go for the second bend. Rick will also go for that second bend to pitch and not slam it into the "floor" for that 1/4 tone below true pitch sound.
It seems to be more interesting to those that want to go deeper into their sound to explore this region. Rather than just bend till the note won't go any further, it is valuable to develop a subtle feel sensation for when the reed is forced to create a note "at the floor" and then explore what it feels/sounds like to float that note "about 1 foot above the floor" where true pitch resides. ---------- The Iceman
Well, there's a whole lot of reasons, but for one, how else do you play arpeggios (chord tones) accurately. Why should you care about that? Well, if you are playing a blues riff through 3 chords on the low end and want to move the riff through the changes as they change, you've gotta hit the chord tones on pitch or you will sound off.
Yeah, a certain imprecision on the blue note bends is part of the blues idiom. But not all bends in all positions are blue note bends.
In fifth position, D3** is the 4th and D2* is the major 2nd which are notes that are played on pitch, not slurred. In fourth position, D3** is the tonic which you've got to hit dead on. In 3rd position 3D* is the minor 6th which needs to be played accurately for minor key blues. In second position D2* is the major 3rd of the V chord which has to be hit dead on if you are moving a riff that has a major 3rd in it through that chord change or you won't be hitting the correct chord tone.
And, yeah, like LSC says, if you are playing with horns, you gotta hit those horn licks on pitch or you will sound like shit. IMHO, playing harmonica along with a horn or horns is the acid test for good intonation.
Anyway, here's Charlie McCoy playing a bluegrass spiritual in fifth position:
Fifth is GREAT for minor key blues. Not much recorded in fifth position, though. But it's a really useful and flexible position for playing minor key material.
Last Edited by on Apr 06, 2012 4:29 PM
Appreciate the responses and enlightening me on the pros of accuracy. Also thanks for the vid on 5th position, but I'm already doing what this guy does but I want more. I've been working on the top end in 5th, and there are some great riffs to be had there. Just getting back to horn sections; at our last practice session, I had to play a horn part with tongue blocking (split octaves) and I did get the IV wrong until I got home and figured it out. Still lots to learn after just 25 years at it.
Yeah, you can do a lot on the high end in fifth. That's one of the nice things about fifth--you can play the whole harp. BUT, you generally have to be careful and try to avoid D5 and D9 (but B9 is the minor 3rd).
The breath pattern for playing a major pentatonic scale in second position is the same as the breath pattern for the minor pentatonic scale in fifth, just starting on a different note. In fifth, the tonic is B2, B5 and B8. So, you can hit the B9(minor 3rd) and run all the way down to B2 with that breath pattern and all the notes will fit--just one idea for something to do every once in a while. BUT you can't bend randomly playing in fifth or you'll go out of key.
hitting notes like cracking a whip right on than into vibrato.thats how original blues players attack harp from where my ears are. the begining blues is modal and not western theory.them old dudes where hittin notes that are not even in chromatic scale.singing vibrato like a boxer dippin` and stabbing around the harp.for instance--James Cotton ,playing, black night,he is playing notes out of the western scales and so blusey and personal it`s beautiful.......
Once you play long enough, you get the muscle memory for where all those so called "quarter pitches" are. I don't even like to think of them as quarter pitches; it's just where you want to be in relation to the closest concert pitch. Every tune is different, and your interpretation of tunes may vary from the popular versions to some extent. If you feel like you want to slide to a pitch, and there's enough time, then slide to it, but start the slide at the point you need to. That's where the accuracy comes in. Singers have the same flexibility in their deliveries, and they need to be accurate too. It's all about playing alot, and numbers of years adds to that familiarity.
And the "rhythm section" has to be sympathetic to what your playing - Its possible to nail the right notes and still sound funny if the band is not harp friendly. Playing with a band that "gets" what your trying to accomplish as a harp player is like heaven.
LSC, thanks for the mention. I actually am very relaxed when it comes to perfect accuracy, as can be seen by my terrible intonation in certain songs! I definitely have spent many an hour with a tuner and a keyboard, matching pitches, but I know that compared to someone like McCoy or even Michalek, I have barely scratched the surface. I normally get turned off when someone is too perfectly on pitch, it sounds plastic to me. But I do think certain styles of music, for example country and classical require more accurate bends to sound right. What I recommend is that people start listening to their favorite players, some of who will hit a note higher or lower for inflection and that each inflection has a "perfect" pitch that sounds right and begin to imitate them. Little Walter will often hit his unbent notes slightly bent. In one verse, he may hit 4 draw 3 different ways! So to summarize, being perfect on pitch according to a tuner often does not acheive the desired sounds. However, being reasonably on pitch is very important and I would go so far to say that if you do not use a tuner while learning your bends, you are fooling yourself. Just my opinion!
Last Edited by on Apr 07, 2012 9:37 AM
Also check out Filisko & Noden I. C. Special. IIRC Joe plays a couple tunes in 5th in the spirit of what Big Walter may have done if he didn't have the right key of harp to play in 2nd. ---------- Spiers Harmonicas
There are 2 tracks on that CD where Filisko plays in Fifth. One is a major key blues (D on a Bb harp) the other one that his liner notes say is in G is actually in G minor (Eb harp). But it's a pretty interesting way he's playing in Fifth, both on the major key tune and the minor key tune.
It's funny that in his liner notes JF describes the tune he says is in G as "using chord tones that are rarely found in early blues"--well, they are minor chords which puts the tune in G minor, not G.
There have been times when I'm playing to random backtracks and suddenly I'll be in that "can do no wrong" mode of jamming and realize that I'm resolving on "E" (thinking in the key of C)and say to myself damn Steve Baker is right, that is a hellofalota fun to work the piss outta that position. There are some grooves with perfect progressions where that position literally plays itself!
Last Edited by on Apr 07, 2012 12:28 PM
"There are some grooves with perfect progressions where that position literally plays itself!"
A lot of times this is because that particular position gives you mode which has all the right notes for that particular tune and, yeah, it's like magic--the harp almost plays itself. The trick is to pick the proper position for the particualr tune.
"It's funny that in his liner notes JF describes the tune he says is in G as "using chord tones that are rarely found in early blues"--well, they are minor chords which puts the tune in G minor, not G."
Thats not Joes statement-That would be Eric describing it from a guitar players point of view. "There are 2 tracks on that CD where Filisko plays in Fifth. One is a major key blues (D on a Bb harp) the other one that his liner notes say is in G is actually in G minor (Eb harp). But it's a pretty interesting way he's playing in Fifth, both on the major key tune and the minor key "-
Joes says-"please note thatt the root note is the #2 exhale" fairly self explanatory,but as usual,you muffed it.
Last Edited by on Apr 07, 2012 5:54 PM
@tmf14: I haven't muffed anything. You use #2 exhale, #5 exhale and #8 exhale for the root note in Fifth whether you are playing major or minor. #2 inhale, #3 exhale, #6 exhale and #9 exhale are the minor 3rd. The only way to get a major 3rd in Fifth (unless you OB)is to play #3 inhale bent a step and a half or #6 inhale bent a half step. I understand playing in Fifth pretty well.
For blues, you're ordinarily using the minor third whether the material is major or minor. I may not have the best ear, but even I can hear that the tune both Noden and Filisko identify as being in G is in G minor--the chords Noden is playing are minor chords. For Filisko, it makes no difference because in Fifth position he'd be playing the same notes anyway whether the guitar is playing a major or minor blues.
Filisko sounds great, and he is a great harp technician whose contributions the harmonica are profound. But both his instructional materials and his liner notes have content that is inaccurate musically. The statement in the liner notes "that the root note is the #2 exhale" doesn't mean anything about whether the tune he's playing is major or minor.
Filisko may be a great instructor in person, but all of his written stuff that I've read contains some musically incorrect shit. Given his exalted reputation I found this surprising. But one may not need to know much about music to play pre war blues. He and Noden sound great.
You are so full of shit-Joe has more musical knowledge than you will EVER have-if you were not such a pompous ass,you would realize that Eic is using open G tuning-check any tuning chart for open G tuning on guitar,then get your shit straight previuos to posting such crap.
I can read--I saw the liner notes saying the guitar was in an open G tuning. Are you saying a guitar player can't play in G minor using an open G tuning?
EDIT: Since i don't play guitar, I just checked on line fingering charts for available guitar chords in open G tuning and Gm and Cm chords are illustrated. So, just because a guitar is tuned to open G does NOT mean the guitar player can't play in G minor.
Last Edited by on Apr 07, 2012 7:19 PM
Well on the tune I'm talking about, "Head on Out of Here" Noden is not playing slide. Listening to the excerpt on CD Baby it sounds like he's finger picking.
The changes sound minor to me, especially when the vocal goes to the "I'm gonna head on out of here" lyric. But maybe I'm wrong. Major or minor, it sounds great with JF playing harp in fifth position.
Maybe it's like "Hesitation Blues" where the actual key is a little ambiguous, but fifth position works very well. That's one of the useful things about fifth position--it's very flexible. Btw, I happen to consider "Hesitation Blues" to be a minor key tune.
To my ear it sounds major. Although there is a little bit of the guitar that does sounds minor in the structure at a point. Maybe he's thrown in a minor chord here and there to give an accent to certain parts. Overall though I'd say it's in a major key.
