hvyj
2293 posts
Apr 02, 2012
9:01 AM
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I've been working on blow bends pretty heavily lately, practicing bending to pitch and hitting the bends on pitch without bending down to the bent pitch.
Anyway, on some of the higher pitched harps, blow 9 and blow 10 will drop all the way down to pitch of the draw note. And i mean solidly at the pitch of the draw note. So i have to be more careful about intonating properly
Looking at instructional materials I've accumulated over the years, some actually have charts showing TWO available blow bends in hole 9 and THREE in hole 10. I had always assumed these were typographical errors, but now I'm not so sure about that.
This sort of seems inconsistent with the conventional wisdom that you can only bend to pitches that are in between the pitch of the blow and the pitch of the draw reeds. So, I'm becoming a little unclear about my understanding of how low the 9 hole and 10 hole blow bends can actually go.
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arzajac
768 posts
Apr 02, 2012
9:22 AM
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John, I thought I was seeing the same thing on an 8-hole blow bend on a D harp, but upon closer investigation, I found that my blow note was about 15 cents sharp and my draw note was 15 cents flat (40 year-old harp). I was able to bend the blow down to about 15 cents shy of what the draw note was supposed to be so they sounded fine but in reality, I was just "cheating" a little bit.
I reckon that since you can bend down about 40 cents past the lowest "real" note and that both reeds were 15 cents off in opposite directions, that gave me 70 cents or more worth of bend - enough to sound good.
Maybe this is what you are experiencing?
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Jim Rumbaugh
708 posts
Apr 02, 2012
9:48 AM
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If: for you "blow 9 and blow 10 will drop all the way down to pitch of the draw note"
And: there are 3 half steps between 10 blow and and 10 draw
And: there are 2 half steps between 9 blow and 9 draw.
It makes since that you can get 3 blow bend notes on 10 and 2 on 9.
I can't bend them that much.
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HarmoniCollege March 24, 2012
theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
Last Edited by on Apr 02, 2012 9:48 AM
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
786 posts
Apr 02, 2012
10:07 AM
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Your floor is typically around a half step above the lowest reed in the hole. Anything past that and you're putting a lot of stress on the reed and it won't go much farther than that, certainly not to the same note as the lowest reed. I think a lot of this is about harmonics, sound is energy and two resonant things interact with one another. I've even had a couple of harps a few years ago that the 1 blow would vibrate and make noise when you hit the 10 blow. Sound energy can be a powerful force.
However, in different configurations and circumstances, reeds can do weird things, especially if you eliminate that interaction. Take a Vienna-comb tremolo (most are Vienna) where each reed has its own hole or a chromatic, where the opposing reed is isolated by a valve... or in a valved diatonic, the limit of bending seems to only be the limit you can reach without choking the reed.
I made an overdraw-overblow trainer once by taking two very thin combs and sandwiching a partition between them. Each reed has its own. Thus, every blow reed can be overblown, every draw reed overdrawn pretty easily because you don't have to, for instance, shut down the draw reed before it goes into overblow.
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David
Elk River Harmonicas
Elk River Harmonicas on Facebook
"It's difficult to think anything but pleasant thoughts while eating a homegrown tomato." - Lewis Grizzard
"Also, drinking homemade beer." - David Payne
Last Edited by on Apr 02, 2012 10:09 AM
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hvyj
2295 posts
Apr 02, 2012
10:39 AM
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I only play pure ET A442, so it ain't the tuning of the harps. I'm using a tuner to check the accuracy of my bends, and on certain high key harps, the pitch will drop SOLIDLY (not almost or close) to the pitch of the draw note.
I'm a little perplexed by this, and it makes me wonder about why some notation charts show these as available 9 hole and 10 hole bends--do some folks know something the resat of us don't?
After years of struggling, I've gotten pretty good at blow bends lately. But I don't claim any special expertise, so I was wondering about this phenomenon--and the notation charts. I think the charts in THE HARMONICA ACCORDING TO CHARLIE MUSSELWHITE show these as available bends. I also have a chart that came with a CD by Gindick that shows them. And I've seen others.
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Learning To Reed
49 posts
Apr 02, 2012
11:32 AM
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Dave, that sounds awesome! I love your posts, man.
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harpdude61
1343 posts
Apr 02, 2012
11:48 AM
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Now that I think about it I have heard licks where players in 2nd position will hit the 9 blow (root) and bend it on down to get the flat 7th...even bend quickly between the two. Cotton and Oscher do it.
Could it possibly just sound good in blues? Could this be the blue 7th? The physics of it may have something to do with those very short reeds? Interesting.
Sounds like you are really getting that blow bend technique down.
I figured out what Oscher was doing on a tune with Muddy recently. He was playing a double stop on 8,9 blow and bent both down right before going to the IV.
The new techniques to learn never ends!
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hvyj
2296 posts
Apr 02, 2012
12:14 PM
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"Now that I think about it I have heard licks where players in 2nd position will hit the 9 blow (root) and bend it on down to get the flat 7th...even bend quickly between the two. Cotton and Oscher do it."
Yeah, that's one of the bends I'm referring to.
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
790 posts
Apr 02, 2012
12:17 PM
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From my career as a print journalist, magazine writer and whatnot, I can tell you, what's in print ain't always right.
and thanks, learningtoreed.
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David
Elk River Harmonicas
Elk River Harmonicas on Facebook
"It's difficult to think anything but pleasant thoughts while eating a homegrown tomato." - Lewis Grizzard
"Also, drinking homemade beer." - David Payne
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hvyj
2297 posts
Apr 02, 2012
12:34 PM
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Music books especially are notorious for typos. But when i was talking about blow bends with Mad Cat Ruth once upon a time, he told me the 9 hole blow will drop a whole step. Didn't give it much thought at the time since back then i couldn't even drop 10 blow a whole step. But lately I've been doing pretty good with blow bends.
It's the higher key harps, Eb, E, F and F# that will sometimes drop blow 9 a whole step and/or blow 10 and step and a half when i don't want them to--and i mean a sold drop to the pitch of the draw note, not just a little flatter than flat. So i have to be more careful to intonate my blow bends on those. Sort of weird since the higher keys are not that blow bend friendly to begin with.
Last Edited by on Apr 02, 2012 12:35 PM
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Michael Rubin
483 posts
Apr 02, 2012
2:05 PM
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I will often bend 8 blow as low as possible to imitate the draw pitch, especially during first position when then draw pitch is the 5th note in the major scale whose root is the five chord. I call it a false double bend. I've heard Jimmy Reed and many imitators do this. I think it sounds bluesier than playing the draw note.
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harpdude61
1344 posts
Apr 02, 2012
3:35 PM
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Michael....I may be wrong but I think in first position that the 8 draw is the second note of the major scale.
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harpdude61
1345 posts
Apr 02, 2012
4:02 PM
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I see. You must mean when you go to the IV chord in 2nd position?
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Michael Rubin
484 posts
Apr 02, 2012
9:20 PM
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Harpdude,
You are right, the note in question is D. You are right, D is the second note in the first position major scale on a C harp, the C major scale.
What you are missing is that I talk about D being the 5th note in the five chord's major scale. In a standard 12 bar blues, the 9th bar is a five chord. In first position on a C harp, G is the five chord. In the key of G, D is the fifth note. The notes that make up a G7 chord, the most common five chord during a C blues, are G B D F.
Therefore when the 9th bar, the five chord, comes around, it sounds great to play a D note because it is in the chord the rhythm players are playing.
Let me know if you need further explanation.
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tmf714
1070 posts
Apr 03, 2012
5:34 AM
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" It's the higher key harps, Eb, E, F and F# that will sometimes drop blow 9 a whole step and/or blow 10 and step and a half "
On an E harp,you may be able to blow bend the 10 hole up ONE whole step-i.e. Eb to D-D being one whole step.
The 9 hole blow has one half step available-i.e. Bb-the same holds true for all key harmonicas-of course the notes would be different for different keys,but you only get 1/2 on the 9 blow and 1 whole step on the 10 blow.
Of course,I am speaking in non-overblow/overdraw terms here.
Last Edited by on Apr 03, 2012 6:20 AM
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harpdude61
1346 posts
Apr 03, 2012
8:32 AM
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Thanks Michael...I see what you are saying now. Another really bluesy note to use here is the 7 overdraw and bend up.
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