Cool that Lee posts this right after the discussion on the latest LP and TB thread. Blow Bend or Draw Bend, Tongue Block or Lip Block, throat bending is a great technique.
Seems like a lot of work for something a little movement of the tongue could do. ---------- Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind How you doin'
nah its a great alternative to the shrill yardbirds/stones big ending. its used and a hook on the wizard and sonny boy did it. its cool cant do it on chromatic i dont think.
This is more about bending while maintaining big tone by keeping the resonator large. Just like blow bending by hinging the jaw and closing the mouth a little to bend...thins out the tone.
I just tried it and found that it's not a lot of work at all, in fact surprisingly simple/easy with a little focus of the attention. And it does allow for a fuller, more open tone than what I get when I tighten my lips to bend. I'll have to practice this, along with practicing keeping my mouth more loose/relaxed in general. These 2 techniques seem to go well together and nicely complement each other. ---------- Matthew
That is a great vid. You can clearly see his Adam's apple moving when he is doing the bend.
On Dave Barrett's site there is a new interview with Richard Sleigh (one of the best ones there, IMO). Richard talks about trying to blow bend by making a bigger resonant cavity with his throat, rather than by trying to scrunch up his tongue in his mouth to make a small resonant cavity as is often described. This makes a lot of sense to me and goes along with this throat-bending idea. A bigger resonant cavity produces a bigger sound. ----------
Maybe I'm wrong but I don't do it that way and my tone is big and fat. The cavity works best when its size is in sync with the pitch some what like a pipe in a pipe organ. I'd like to hear some examples of people playing the way they describe it. I get the feeling that the body has it's own way of doing things without us thinking about so much. I think what people are calling throat bending is just muscles in the throat moving because of what is happening in the mouth. If you squeeze your hand your forearm will flex. As always I put myself up on the chopping block. This is done with the mic in the Mac in garage band. A little echo and reverb and a touch of overdrive nothing special. I don't think there is any one way. It's what works for you. I might suck for all I know.
---------- Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind How you doin'
@Diggsblues - that sounds pretty good to me, so whatever you're doing, it's working. Can't be just one way to skin a cat or play a harp either. ---------- Matthew
Sankey does mention that the lips and tongue are still involved. This is a very simple instructional, really...Sankey is basically saying what every instructor for any in-the-mouth musical instrument will tell you...the more relaxed you are with your lips, tongue, throat, oral cavity, etc etc, the more success you will have achieving what you want to play. I agree with Diggs though...I think the term throat bending seems a misnomer to me...isn't it the back of your tongue that creates the "shape" or "direction" of the air that you are breathing in through the harp? The more "open" your throat is, the more freedom you have to move that back part of your tongue around. I think that's what people mean by 'throat bending"...if you tongue block, the front of your tongue is on the harp, doing nothing except blocking holes, right?...and the back of your tongue moves to create the pitch, while your throat opens, like what Diggs says.."squeeze your hand and your forearm will flex". If your throat is relaxed, that back part of your tongue has more freedom to really find that pitch. At least that's how I think of it...but you can call it "throat bending"...I think it's the back of the tongue... Now that I've figured it out, I just have to execute...LOL
@tomaxe, Call it what you want. I think the video tells the story well. You want to move your "focus" from the front part of you mouth back to the throat area, whatever the mechanics are. ----------
Exactly...work the throat and the tongue will move accordingly.
I say throat because I feel the throat working 360 degrees.....not just the bottom part at the back of the tongue, but the top and sides which are the back part of the roof of your mouth. I guess if you do mainly use the tongue you would not feel the whole throat working.
I tend to agree with tomaxe and Lee Sankey that the tongue is an integral part of the bend process along with the throat etc.,
If you are a lip purser try this:-
Drop your tongue as low as you possibly can, even curving the middle part down to get it really low. Now keeping the tongue strictly in that position so there is no tongue movement try to execute all three bends on hole 3. I couldn't get close to making any bend!
However I'm not knocking the essence of throat bending as an excellent means of creating a large oral cavity which in turn leads to improved tone.
The point about bending low harps is a good one. When I try bending hole 1 on a low D for instance, my Jaw and throat/tongue are working like crazy to open and drop low enough to allow the bend to sound - no luck as yet and dislocation is not an option - I'll only suffer so much for my art:) ---------- Grey Owl YouTube Grey Owl Abstract Photos
I need to clear something out. Throatbending has (almost)nothing to do with the tongue. The "bending" action occurs were you do the throatvibrato. That means that you can bend for ex 2D and put a little wiggle to get a sweet vibrato. If you bend with the tongue and do throat vibrato you get that nasty cha cha cha sound. I´ve only just started to use this metod and I belive i get a "sweeter" sound. And my vibrato has realy started to devlop so i can slow it down and get a better control. Dick sjöberg taught me that if you take a sipp of icewater and tilt your head back and let the water run as far back in your throat witout swalowing you hit the sweet spot and that´s were the bending should occur. Dick has a tremendus tone and is know for it so i trust him on this!
I am exclusively a "throat" bender and have been for years. I do agree that it is faster and generates superior tone. I also agree that what I and others call the "throat" is actually the root of the tongue which is so far back it feels like the throat.
However, I also agree with Diggs. What Sankey is demonstrating is an unnecessarily complicated and convoluted way to "throat" bend. A whole lot of unnecessary effort.
I DO NOT use that part of the tongue that is in my mouth to execute draw bends at all. I can hit all the draw bends with my tongue flat on the floor of my mouth or even with the tip of my tongue on the roof of my mouth (although more effort is required with the tongue up because of the obstructed airway--and that's not anything you'd do in actual performance situations anyway). But that part of my tongue that is in my mouth is simply not involved at all when I draw bend--all muscle movement is farther back down in my throat. My lips and jaw stay relaxed are are not involved either. I get very even tone and attack that way.
It is my experience "throat" bending can be accomplished with far less effort and anatomical involvement than what is shown in the Sankey vid.
Btw, I can also hit the 8&9 hole blow bends using only my "throat" but not the 10 hole blow bends. I think that's doable--I just can't do it (yet).
P.S. I just saw Milsson's last post after i wrote mine. Although that's not how i would explain it, what he is saying Sjoeberg told him seems like an accurate way to describe what I do when i draw bend. And i completely agree with what he is saying about vibrato.
Last Edited by on Mar 20, 2012 12:05 PM
"I can hit all the draw bends with my tongue flat on the floor of my mouth or even with the tip of my tongue on the roof of my mouth"
hvyj - Well blow me down with a feather! So can I. I just read your post and thought wtf? So I tried it moving my tongue all over my mouth and I could easily achieve all the draw bends too. I must say I'd honestly never thought about it before. I guess I'm a throat bender too then. All I know for certain is that I play tongue blocked for everything except blow bends. I'm guessing that this throat bending mullarky is just a by product of tongue blocking then. Is that a correct assumption?
Milsson - Thanks for the confirmation. Hahaha! Just tested it out and I do that too when playing Sonny Terry style. That's two new things I've learnt today! :-)
@Kingley: Yep. No difference in the way I draw bend LP or TB. I'm not a full time TBer, though, so my TB draw bends are not as strong since I don't work at doing them. But the point is neither you nor I nor Milsson use that part of the tongue that is in the mouth to effectuate draw bends.
Btw, I CAN blow bend pretty well TBing. Just tighten the right corner of your mouth where the air aperture is and the tone will drop. At first it may help if you simultaneously press your tongue harder against the harp to do it. But once you get it, you won't need to press the the tongue anymore to get hit those bends. Once you get it, it's ridiculously easy to do. Even I can do it, and I usually don't TB for single notes.
"I'm guessing that this throat bending mullarky is just a by product of tongue blocking then. Is that a correct assumption?"
Well, yeah, sort of. The reason so many players claim that TBing produces better tone is because TBing FORCES the player to do all sorts of things that are necessary to achieve superior tone. BUT, if a LP player makes a conscious effort to do those things, it is my experience that substantially equivalent tone can be achieved. But the LP player has to make a very deliberate effort while the TB player automatically has to do those things in order to be able to TB effectively. Like, for example, LARGE AIR APERTURE. TB air aperture is automatically large--A LP player has to deliberately make the air aperture as large as possible consistent with still playing a single note, which, btw, is much larger than most players might think. That's just one example--throat bending is another. But there are more.
Last Edited by on Mar 20, 2012 1:59 PM
@Kingley: Just edited my post to add some additional info while you were posting. But let me know if my suggested TB blow bend technique works for you.
Agree with Millson and hvyj....one more thing I want to add. If I look in a mirror with plenty of light and try to work my throat the way I play, I see movement 360 degrees around the opening, not just the back part of the tongue section.
Last Edited by on Mar 21, 2012 1:14 AM
"But let me know if my suggested TB blow bend technique works for you. "
hvyj - Thank you. Yes that suggestion worked very well. Just had a quick mess around with it and it's very, very easy to do. Just need some practice now to add some finesse to it and get the muscle memory working. Thanks once again. That's three new things I've learnt today now. It's turning into a very good day.
i watched that Richard Sleigh interview. i didnt catch any mention of the throat. he talked about pulling his tongue further back, tuning his mouth to a pitch one octave lower, which gave him a bigger space to work with, and twice as much movement. he actually talked about opening up the space in his mouth: "finding that next octave inside of my mouth, or that space that was twice as big" "i found that if i back my tongue up and get double" Barrett says "the way i understand bending is you need to tune your mouth to that resonant pitch, so you're saying you can tune it an octave lower and still be able to influence the reed" Sleigh agrees. ----------
It is possible to draw bend just by changing the size of the oral resonance chamber without using the tongue or the throat at all. Easiest to do on the lower key harps (G and Ab). But it's not as fast as "throat" bending. You can use both in conjunction which I suppose would work particularly well on tenor tuned harps (but since I don't play low harps, I don't know for sure, so I'm just speculating about that.)
Also, you need a pretty open and relaxed oral resonance chamber to start with in order to do this. I haven't heard the Sleigh interview, so I don't know if that's what he's talking about.
@hvyj he was specifically talking about blow bends, and as so&so say above, how he used to push his tongue way forward to make a small space and then initiate the bend with a tiny amount of movement. Talking particularly about high harps. After reading about an experiment he wondered about opening up the space in his mouth to find the same note an octave lower, which he thought would be easier to deal with, allowing twice the amount of movement, be easier to control. That's the thrust of it. Barrett questioned him and he became a bit unsure whether it was exactly what was going on, eventually said all he really knew was that it worked for him. I tried some blow bends with tb; I can get the 8 on an A tb'd pretty well doing as you des ribs above, but I think a bunch of this is really about perception. If you think a movement somewhere and it works; heyyy! But what's actually happening might be quite different to the bit you're aware of. Like Crowley said, I dunno what's really happening, all I know is that if I do certain things, certain results follow ----------
I think this is good stuff for beginners who tend to use their lips to bend. It's a good instructional to get them to relax.
Other than that, for people who have played for a while and have found their own way of bending which gives them the tone they like, it means not much.
I get the creeps when people are pushing their own technique forward as THE way how to do it. There's probably heaps of people out there who sound awesome with doing everything with the tongue (Diggs for example). So why are all these claims necessary?
It's the same argument as TB vs LP. If you like your own sound, don't spend any time in trying to change it. Spend your precious time at getting even better.
For me, I tend to feel that low bends are generally much more backward. Higher bends much more forward. But where my tongue starts and throat ends? Geez, I don't care.
While I agree with Micha that there is not necessarily any one "right" way to do things, I do believe that there are definitely "wrong" ways to try to do things (i.e., approaches that limit you in some way). I think it's very instructive, even for more advanced players, to bat these topics around. I think we can all agree that bending using your lips only (to partially block the hole) is one example of a "bad" way to do things, if that's the only way you bend (yes, if that's the particular sound you are looking for in a given instance, that's one thing… but it definitely limits you when used as a general approach to bending).
A lot of this really depends on the sound you are looking for. Bending using the front part of your tongue gives you more of that "up close" sound, whereas bending from deeper in your throat gives you a more distant (dare I call it bigger?) sound -- like when you say "eeee" into your blow notes, vs. "ooohhhhh" or "aahhhh".
In a way it's like LP vs. TB. The pursers (when they are not too busy kissing their grandmothers) must be after that particular pinched sound -- why else would they consciously choose to limit their playing options so? ;) (sorry... couldn't resist :)
yonderwall......go back to this post to read about the difference between a Lip Purser and a Lip Blocker. http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/board/board_topic/5560960/2972174.htm
Agreed...variations on bending techniques involving tongue/throat shape and position as well as TBing or LPing can produce various tones as well as effects. From this thread and the one mentioned above, I have learned that there are variations among TBers as well LPers..or LBers. It is all good. Whatever sound you like to play is the best.
I cannot comment on which techniques are best for Tongue Blockers. I can do splits and a little side TBing for 1st position folk songs, but I am very much lacking in TB bending and side blocking while playing 2nd position blues. I am finally devoting some time to it and look forward to reaping the rewards.
I do feel I am qualified (maybe I just think I am) to discuss the pros of Lip Blocking and bending with the throat. I'm not going to explain how as it is covered very well in the above mentioned thread.
Throat vibrato while bending.....Once the technique is learned it is great for playing bends such a as hole 3 and hole 10. Going betwen the 4 pitches of 3 draw and the 3 pitches of 10 blow, works very well while also maintaining a good vibrato (or not) as well as clean distinct changes and big full tone. I don't know about super low harps but from F to F it works fine.
Overbending...sure many players can TB and overblow. I wish I could hear more samples. Overblowing and overdrawing with the throat while lip blocking, IMHO, is the technique to learn if you want to play these notes quickly and easily with big sound and control of the pitch. Once learned on a properly gapped harp, these notes are just as easy to play as any. Bending up with or without strong vibrato is no problem.
Switching notes....It works well to play the faster riffs if all the above mentioned notes are used. The blues scale in the top 5 holes in 2nd position is a great example. Blows, draws, overblows, overdraws, and blowbends are all required. Using the throat makes the changes subtle and easy.
One that I don't think is mentioned often enough is the ergonomics of the technique. The volume (not pressure) of air flow available is much better than a closed throat, closed mouth, tight cheeked embouchere. It takes much less push and pull of air to get the notes to play....which in turn makes changing holes and breath patterns quick and easy. Playing between ultra soft to very loud for the cresendo effect also works well.
Those are the main ones I will list for now. This is not a vs. post or a promotion of my technique...I want to learn them all....right or wrong, just sharing my experience.
harpdude61, yes, I had followed that previous thread with great interest. I actually suspect that many lip pursers eventually become lip blockers over time just because their mouths find it to be the most relaxed way to play and settle into that embrochure naturally (I know that my mouth is lazy and is always looking to catch a rest when possible!)
I am now a 99.99% TB'er (I switched over from "the dark side" last February :) I was just experimenting with tongue vs. "throat" bending, and I believe that I do have better control over my higher blow bends when I bend from the throat. On harps higher than 'C' I usually find that my 9- and 10-hole blow bends bottom-out very quickly when I bend using the front of my mouth, but after testing this morning (and annoying the neighbors I'm sure) I find that I do seem to have finer control over these bends when I bend from deeper in the throat! A possible breakthrough!! Thanks!!
Obviously it is the diversity in our techniques and approaches that ultimately makes/keeps things interesting. This has been a valuable discussion for me.
Good point yonder...I probably did start out with more of a kiss shape and as relaxation slowly creeped in it was the lip block embrochure that took over.
Kudos to you for learning both!
It blows my mind that I can play the bends of the 3 hole clean and precise, but when I simply move the tongue to block holes 1 and 2 it just stops working. The tone unbent sounds decent but it weakens when I do manage to pull the pitch slightly down. I won't give up! Maybe I need to watch Lee's videos again and pay more attention.
Yes another interesting and educational thread. To hear what works best for different players is useful. You can try different folks techniques and they may not work for you then all of a sudden someone describes a technique in a certain way and eureka! it works and makes sense.
Harpdude 'Overbending...sure many players can TB and overblow. I wish I could hear more samples'
Here is a sample of a friend of mine who lives in the next town to me (Forum name -Shoulders). I have played some harp with him and he is a very good player who TB's everything.
He put this following video up as a tutorial where deals with ideas for jamming in 3rd position on a Bb harp. Here he is incorporating 7 & 9 overdraws and 6 OB over a simple Band in the box backing. Some neat ideas here.
Thanks Greyowl... He does pretty well TBing those overbends.
Jason says his goal with overbends was to play them so well that no one can tell it is an overbend...pitch, tone, articualtion, everything....that takes awhile no matter TBd ot LPd
@SuperBee, I think what Richard Sleigh was getting at in the Dave Barrett interview, was that size of the resonant chamber can be doubled e.g. in a 10b bend to get the SAME note (not an octave different). He tried to get that bigger chamber by (I surmise) "throat bending" and found that by having that bigger chamber he had better control over the bend as well. Otherwise, you are correct, I think.
@harpdude61, If it helps, I basically had to mess around quite a bit, trying everything I could think of, to get those first TB bends, especially blow bends, but once I got it I was able to make the mechanics be more and more relaxed and more like what I did LB'd, i.e. more throat-oriented. Keep at it. Once you nail that TB stuff, you will be truly awesome, since you already have the overbending stuff at a very high level. It will be interesting to see how much of each of the TB and LB techniques you wind up with in your mix. Keep us posted. ----------
Last Edited by on Mar 21, 2012 10:05 AM
@harpdude61, full disclosure: I've only been playing a little over a year, so my few months of LP was never that spectacular -- I am not worthy of those particular kudos :(
As for your TB draw bends -- yes, you do have to learn to bend all over again, but rest assured that, like most things, it *will* get better over time with practice (just not overnight, as we all wish).
To be honest (after trying LB bending and TB bending just now), provided you focus on bending from the throat, the two feel very similar (I'll bet you agree once it starts working for you... which, have absolutely no doubt, it will).
Yeah totally so&so, the same note but tuning his mouth to a note an octave down. That's what he spoke about. He never mentions his throat. I listened very carefully. It's In the context of the experiment where the guy connects a tube to a harmonica and squeezes it with a pinch roller, by which means he can vary the size of the resonating space and is able to demonstrate what happens when you bend the reed. It's too involved for me to bother with especially since you have access to the video. Just there is no mention of the throat, I thought I should point that out Cheers, Dave ----------
Last Edited by on Mar 22, 2012 3:54 AM
