For those players who worry that their lack of music theory is holding back their playing listen to Paul deLay at 4.30
He comes across as a very unassuming guy in the video, what a shame he has gone, great harp and vocals to die for.
My favorite deLay track is "All My Money Gone". I think he does the intro in 2nd pos., first solo in 1st pos. and the second solo in 3rd pos. I hope I've got that right!
Hi Wheezer, long time no hear, hope all is well with you.
Yeah! Theory. I've learnt just enough to get by but I have no intentions of playing with a band where it would probably be more useful. I know what the third and fifth and seventh is now, and can just about work my way around the circle of fifths if pushed. I'm also aware of a little bit of the terminology which is useful.
As I see it, there were probably loads of guys back in the day who had no idea about theory and played with their heart and soul and managed to create some lovely music so I put myself in their camp.
I expect we'll hear from people saying it is important because theory will open up further possibilities of getting more from the harp but for me (with time getting short now) it's a little too late I just want to enjoy and express myself and go by gut feel.
Thanks for the video on how to embed from Youtube.
I've just finished 3 months chemo and radiotherapy. They found a tumor in the right lung, so I've not been doing much in the way of music. Trouble is that during the treatment I picked up an infection that has caused a partial collapse of the affected lung which has made playing harp and singing a triful tricky. Ain't life a bitch? Pete
Oh! I'm sorry to hear that Pete. Beaming healing thoughts and best wishes from North London. Hope it all goes well for you. Keep in touch through the forum. I enjoy your posts. ----------
Chet Baker was another famous jazz musician who did not know theory (at least in the beginning).
Keep in mind that Chet and Paul had tremendous natural talent. Most mortals are not gifted this way, so please don't use this as an excuse not to go the theory route unless you, too, have amazing built in talent and/or commit to your instrument with 8 hr/ or so a day of dedicated practicing. ---------- The Iceman
I know some theory and it is useful. Knowledge is never a bad thing.
But, I recently met a harp player that mostly plays bluegrass and old folk tunes, but he can bend and play blues as well.
Get this. He has probably 8 keys of harp and has no idea the key the band is in and does not even ask. He digs around until he finds a harp that fits the song. He played some in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd position for sure, maybe more. He had no idea he was playing in different positions. To him it was a matter of "this harp right here sounds good with this song if I do this". He had a sense for the root note of each position, but to him it was more this harp fits this song rather than which position fits the style or mode of the song.
He tongue blocked very well. He played octaves and when I told him that 1 and 4 blow were the same note, he thought I was crazy. He said no, the 4 blow sounds higher up than the 1 blow.
He had great rhythm and was a crowd pleaser. The group he played with at open mic were his regular jam buddies so I'm sure he had the harps he used memorized.
He never had a lesson and learned by listening, finding, and copying.
This open mic was out of town for me but I do hope to get back and get this guy on video.
I wonder how many of the old blues guy were similar to this.
As much or as little as interests you. There is no rule that you have to have so much or so little to make music. We are all wired differently and if we follow our hearts music will be a joyus learning experience. IMO if you are frustrated, worried, stuck, you are on the wrong road. I see that as ones soul letting the head know things are not on the right path. Personally, theory is of no interst to me. I prefer to discover stuff on my own. I have no problem waiting for things to appear. They usually appear when I am lost. That feeling is one I have come to love more and more as the years go by. I may not know a lot but I have my sound. That is all I ever wanted. Follow your dreams! Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
I've heard it said,that it's not "the amount" of theory you need to learn that's important.... it's understanding how to skillfully use the theory you already do know!
"He never had a lesson and learned by listening, finding, and copying....
I wonder how many of the old blues guy were similar to this."
Do some reading and you'll quickly find the answer to your question. The answer may astonish you. Almost all of them, especially harp players. ---------- The Blues Photo Gallery
I categorically agree with Walter that we are all wired differently. Having been classically trained on bone and other brass, I am a good chart player; but since I think a lot in images, I feel that being able to read music actually hinders improvisation on bone....for me, that is. I feel a "hitch" in my mentation as I visualize the notes I'm choosing. I feel the same hitch if I try to use tabs. I play harp using what I have dubbed tactile imaging. A 4 draw is a 4 draw is a 4 draw, doesn't matter what the actual note is. That being said, the classical training is a help in keeping time, training the ear and such. You would need more theory in learning to play a "legitimate" instrument as you would need to play the same instrument in all the different keys instead of just picking up a different key harp.
Think of a need for functional theory like a bell curve. Paul is at the far extreme...80% of us are in the middle. We often compare ourselves to pros when it works to our mental advantage even when it is not the most realistic stance.
Paul was a singer and a song writer. He was also someone who lived a very difficult life that ended very early. Take what he is saying in context and realize the extent to which he either A.) knew more about general music theory and applied that to non-harmonica situations or B.) how well his situation mirrors your own.
I guess I should add that my post above pertains to blues, rock and improv. In a chart swing or jazz band, when you have a solo, many times a solo will be written out for you, but the chords are always (?) posted above. Sometimes you just get the chords posted above the staff. If you were playing harp in a jazz band and just had a bunch of chords thrown at you, you would need to know a lot more theory AND you would need to have greater command of your instrument than you need for blues or rock.
Also: if you can make good music, you 'know' music theory. All music theory is, is a way of understanding, speaking, and visualizing what you hear. It is simply creating a vocabulary to describe what actually happens in music. It's not rocket science. Don't think of it as soooo freaking hard. Jazz players that don't know theory? BS. They know it, just might not have the words for it.
True, you can geek out on the stuff like, thinking of it as music itself, gorging your self on it. But you can also use it to reach out to some notes that you hadn't thought of before.
Thinking that music theory can be bad for your music is like thinking that learning to read can hinder your ability to do math.
My experiences with many of the old guys ranged from guys who not only didn't know much theory, but also was functionally illiterate to those who were fairly well education (for their time) and had a really great handle on theory. The ones who had more theory knowledge were clearly more versatile and could play other stuff besides blues even tho didn't record outside of the genre.
Basic theory is essentially functional theory, mainly enough so you can communicate with musicians who play other instruments and quickly get across what is wanted and/or needed and it has helped me tremendously over the years and has allowed me to play in blues situations (like large bands with 5 piece horn sections) that the average player couldn't cut in a million years because they lack the basic knowledge of theory, and even in non blues situations like playing in a GB band siutation.
Does one need to sight reed? Not like it was once needed 100 years ago and the only situation where those skills are necessary are in jazz, classical, or full time session pro playing situations. Now many will squak about the Nashville guys not being able to read, but they have their own notation system and many of them also have excellent sight reading skills like Charlie McCoy. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
@BBQbob: There's a difference between sight reading and being able to work from a chart. I can't sight read, but I can learn my part from a chart if I get the music ahead of time.
How much theory does one need to know? Well, if your ear is really, really good, not much. If your ear is not really good, having a basic practical working knowledge of theory helps a lot. But no matter what kind of ear you have, it sure helps to know the lingo if you're working with other musicians.
I know nothing of theory. When I play with others they are usually top players and many of them read some but many don't like me. If you are good, you can figure out the song key and such in a heartbeat and never miss a beat. If you can do this, and are satified with what you do, there is no reason to go further. Like BBQ Bob said, many of the older players had not a clue to not only reading, but how their gear worked or what strings were on it, etc. I was amazed at the other world that I encounter here on the net, which is like a PHD in techno stuff. I was of the know nothing school. If I get bored with my stuff I will learn some theory for sure. There is a harp player/customizer out in the bay area that has generously taken a load of my funky harps and is customizing some for me. I am sure I will be forever cracked and not want to play my stock harps anymore! But I feel blessed to have come up playing guitars with often only a few strings on it, action so high it was about impossible to play, harps that were forever stuck and flat, amps and mics, PA's that were a joke by todays standards, etc. I learned how to play despite this stuff and now how I play on good gear is a direct result of the funky stuff and could be learned no other way. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
Nobody NEEDS theory if they are HAPPY with what they are doing.
Theory RARELY adds "soul" to your playing.
== but ==
By learning SOME theory, I can now do things I could not do previously. When you are trying to get somewhere, you can drive around looking until you find it, or you can ask for directions on how to get there.
---------- HarmoniCollege March 24, 2012 theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
Last Edited by on Mar 13, 2012 9:59 AM
well my theory is blues is a 1-4-5. sometimes its a 1 and 4, sometimes you just hang on the one and play a ride on top of it. another theory is harps are just fine the way they were tuned 100 years ago no need to do it different. my other theory is standard tuning is completely wrong. and guitar tuning should be in 5ths like eastern music, nigerian and north african music. strings were invented by mongolians who simply jammed a broken bow into the nasal cavity of a horses skull. and tuned in 4ths or fifths. this later became the oude. euros who never invented instruments brought them back as souveniers from the crusades. where they changed the tuning to what monks could sing, only 12 notes not 17 the way nature intended but they simply couldnt grasp it in 3 million years. they also added frets and keys to things because they played robotically and had no soul or feel. the original arabic tuning for flamenco guitar was DGDGBE. well thats my theory keep struggling to be the biggest brain in the graveyard.
Theory and Harmony knowledge are depends are what you play how you play and do you need it to make your playing better. ---------- Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind How you doin'
I'm thoroughly enjoying billy's posts, in a can't not look at the trainwreck kind of way. So unpredictable. So humorous even if unintentionally so. What will he rail at next?
sorry typo it should read I KEEP STRUGGLING. but i really dont want it to be about me. its about BLUES HARP. but yeah this is my real personality im not trolling i have diverse freinds with other interests like classical music and i argue to the ends of the earth with them. but i really like walter and it shows crap instruments do make you play better. the biggest joke is people laughed at my pawn shop decca. now those japanese peices of garbage fetch big bucks.when a serious band comes along i choose a rehearsal studio with the worst pa in the world. it really builds up your vocals to practice on a bad pa. and deak is a genius. when i record guitar out of tune then play it back the guitar vibes standing still because its tuned at the same out of tune frequency. somehow deak has the d bow including the tone of the slide itself tuned to the frequency of the harp. you cant do this with electronic effects alot of trial and planning goes into this. and its really facinating. you know like singing strings one tone sets them all off singing in this mystic genie of sound. but deaks not giving out equipment secrets. you have a preference in string walter?
Some of these posts remind me of what a math teacher said to me once, "People think they can not do math but that is not true. every time you take a step you solve a series of differential equations to determine where to put your foot. If you solve them wrong, you fall on your face. See, you can do math!"
Music theory is the same way. As has been mentioned several times in this thread,"If your music sounds good, you've got it!", even if you cant write it down and solve it out in proper notation.
Last Edited by on Mar 13, 2012 1:53 PM
billy shines: thanks! I use 10's on my electric. I use whatever ones are cheapest at the time and I only change the set when I break a string which can often take a year or more. the guitar I use on 99% of my electric recordings is a stock MIK tokai copy of a 335. It sounds as good as a real 335 to my ears. When I was based out of austin everyone was using 12's. they felt like trying to play on a tow truck cable. They also were changing strings every gig and the big names between sets. I never got that. I find it a hassle to change strings. I prefer to be playing instead and the older strings sound warmer to me. the new ones sound genericly clean. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
ok this is gonna get a little weird. i tune gGDGbd . 1st string is an .012 screenwire or bicycle brake cable strand. 2nd is a .014 stainless steel rope strand. 3rd is a .026 unwound steel. 4th is a stripped coaxyl cable. 5th is whatever A string i can muster or a broomwire. 6th is the steel rope strand again. i really hate wound string. and the curl in the cable strand helps me pull. i rarely use a pick and i only pull with my index. my theory being wound strings cause scritch and scratch and not suitable for slide and much less twangy. my theory on making my own strings is its cheaper to replace and its the same damned thing. i call it string theory.
you are way beyond my comprehension Billy Shines with such gear but I say whatever turns one on is the way to go!. I played cheap stuff because it was all I could afford. Starting out my parents would not allow me to play music so I had to make my own instruments in secret. I had no one around in my life that was a musiicisn so I learned via my imagination. I had no idea a guitar was suppose to be tuned to certain notes. I still play via this method. I just start making sounds and my ears tell me when they are right or wrong. I made sounds on whatever I put together until I was able to secretly get cheap guitars and then a harp. When I got to playing full time It was funky gear because most full time musicians played on crap unless they were in the top 1% of the entire mix. Now that I have a real job my gear is high end and it works great. I still use cheap strings because I don't hear/feel any difference between most string brands. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
All of this talk of not knowing or needing to know some music theory is BS. It’s like saying you don’t need to know grammar to speak a language. You may not what a subject and a verb are but you know that if you want something done by someone you have to who you want to do it and what you want done. It’s like we’re back in high school trying to convince our mom we don’t need math or just trying to be nonconformist.
If you know that some songs go “da da da da” and others go “da da dum” you know some music theory. If you know some sounds work better together than others you know some music theory. Every time someone told you to speed up or slow down or listen for the beat you had a lesson in theory. Every time someone told you to play higher or lower you had a lesson in theory. Every time someone told you not to do that when I do this you had a lesson in theory.
So for everyone saying they jam with bands all the time and don’t know theory I say BS, because if you didn’t know to play what sounds right at the right time you wouldn’t be jamming very long.
Having no formal training in theory is a lot different than not knowing theory.
thats beautiful walter i hope you talk about your homemade childhood instruments. ok now back to muscial theory.
Music theory is the study of how music works. It examines the language and notation of music. It seeks to identify patterns and structures in composers' techniques across or within genres, styles, or historical periods. In a grand sense, music theory distills and analyzes the fundamental parameters or elements of music—rhythm, harmony (harmonic function), melody, structure, form, texture, etc. Broadly, music theory may include any statement, belief, or conception of or about music. A person who studies these properties is known as a music theorist. Some have applied acoustics, human physiology, and psychology to the explanation of how and why music is perceived.
the theory of music is exactly that, A THEORY. and shouldnt be taught in public schools as MUSICAL FACT! we need stickers for textbooks so that children with addle minds from food dye poisoning will know, "MUSIC THEORY IS A THEORY NOT A SCIENTIFIC FACT!"
Come on Billy, every musician is a music theorist in some way. Every time an idea pops into our heads we’re theorists and when we grab an instrument or a start beating on a table or whistling we become practitioners. Every time you sit in on a song you’re a music theorist in that you listen for the rhythm, the tone, the structure and then make a judgment call about what will work in that context. The amount of theory you’ve applied over time gives you a greater ability to accomplish what you want to in that context.
Of course it’s the broadest sense in which I speak. And as you said --Broadly, music theory may include any statement, belief, or conception of or about music.—Thus, when you look over at your buddy and say damm, that sounds funky, you just stated a music theory.
And I completely agree that music is not a science.
Last Edited by on Mar 13, 2012 10:51 PM
actually that was a complete joke post. i took the music theory stuff from wikipedia, the joke is creationist wanted a sticker on all science textbooks in the midwest stating that the theory of evolution is a theory not a science fact. yeah i know exactly what you mean we got these new vegetable sticks theyre a hollow square tube if you blow in some they will whistle. cant resist gotta test each one before i eat it.
I took music theory and several performance classes for a wonderful wise man named Frank Salazar in the late 70's. If you were in the music scene in Ventura County around that time you may have heard of him. He taught at Ventura college and directed the youth and civic symphonies and had his finger in all kinds of music.
He told us that music theory was a compilation of rules that great music seems to follow. If we learned the rules we would be able to write good music. Great music would probably require breaking the rules by breaking them in a way that obeyed a deeper understanding of where the rules come from. An understanding that hopefully, following the rules would lead us to. This touches on Billy Shines post as is is similar to a religion in which the rules are supposed to guide you into a deeper understanding but many get hung up on the rules and never get to the understanding of where they come from.
I have no doubt that there are a few among us who understand these deeper, indescribable concepts, without having gone through formal learning of theory. There are others, like me, who took theory, understood it just well enough and just long enough to pass the test, and have yet to reach the depths.
i think vanity is wrong, there is always someone better than you. you should tell yourself and others you suck. when someone tells me well listen ive been playing for 40 years and the star of my own bedroom blah blah. i say tomelf ahh they suck worse than me. then next time i play i tell myself i suck. ever notice when people say you did great youve just finished 5 or so numbers onstage and you cant remember any of them? yeah feel baby its all feel and mindlessness. especially making videos they will always suck because you cant lose your mind, youre a music director, cameraman, blah blah. walter is blessed he can tune all this BS out.
Great stuff billy_shines. I am now calling my guitar-playing busking partner "String Theory" -- inspired by your post! He is a big fan of physics so it fits perfectly...
Billy: Getting use to the camera, recording studio, etc, just takes time. I figured I have done approx 5,000 club/festival gigs(in all kinds of environments) and am much more comfortable on the stage than in the audience. Since I have built my studio(s) I have done about 3,000 sessions(my music I don't record others for $). It too is now as easy as a club stage. Time is the great comfort maker. I remember being nervous as heck starting out in clubs and recordings were a nightmare because so much pressure was present due to money/scheduling the players,not having much experience in them, overwhelmed by the sheer gear of it all... Now I am totally self contained and can record for hours with no stress. Keep doing it and it gets easier- there is no way around putting hours under the belt. Walter
---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
ok heres one of my long held theories. im dead serious and you will find this very uninteresting. i am convinced, that some not all, of these ancient treppaned skulls, are actually stringed instruments and not alien brain surgeries. my theory is the size and shape of your skull is what makes you a good singer/harp player/jews harp player. and nothing else. i can argue this to the ends of the earth.
@hvyj --- Very few genres require sight reading skills and my major point here is that too often the need of theory knowledge is far more often confused with theory knowledge, tho related, are CLEARLY two DIFFERENT skill sets. Reading a chart with just chord changes listed is different, but you seldom see those as a studio pro and sight reading skills in most full time studio pro gigs are a necessity.
Learning basic theory, regardless of how good your ear is helps FAR more than it will ever hurt and sight reading was far more important 100 years ago than it is now, except for playing jazz, classical, or full time studio session pro gigs, where that is still a very necessary akill. If you know some basic theory, it's easier to adjust to a lot more things without having to think about than it is without a basic working knowledge of it. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
You know, those who say knowing theory doesn't help you play with feeling must not know any theory. While true depth of emotion comes from the soul of the player and is difficult, if not impossible, to teach, it has been my experience that knowing some theory is very helpful in finding what notes to play in order to express whatever feeling the player is trying to convey. So, it's not like there's no relationship between the two.
Ok I'm putting myself on the chopping block. You guys can judge if I play with feeling. Before I even got a music degree I had a teacher that made me do exercises in 7 clefs and 29 major keys that means the double flat and double sharp keys and chords up to the 13th. In college I studied common practice (figured Bass) and jazz harmony and arranging as well as jazz styles analyzes class. I studied composition, orchestration and arranging privately recently. My youtube is www.youtube/diggsblues ---------- Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind How you doin'
@Diggs You can take your head off the block mate, you play with feeling. Couldn't understand a word you were saying in the 2nd paragraph though ;) ---------- Grey Owl YouTube Grey Owl Abstract Photos
I think someone who doesn't know theory arguing that it won't help them, but hinder them, is ridiculous. It's like someone who's illiterate arguing that learning to read will make them worse at speaking. In my opinion, learning to read music and learning theory are prerequisites to being a well-rounded musician. I know lots of people think differently on this topic, and there are lots of professionals that could be sighted who can't read a note and don't know a lick of theory, but the truth of the matter is; most of the pros who start out not knowing theory start learning it at some point in their career, because they realize it'll help them better express themselves. I'm all for spontanaity and playing from the soul, but first you need to work on the basics. Reading music (notation) and knowing theory belong in the basics category. If you aren't versed in either of these things, I suggest you do yourself a service and start learning! You'll be suprised at the results. ----------
Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2012 2:28 PM
Things depend a bit on what you mean by theory. Knowing the notes in a, say, Gmaj7 chord -- is that "theory"? Knowing the C major scale? Anyone who argues that such purported knowledge of theory -- or any knowledge of theory -- should somehow diminish your capabilities as a musician has a rather large burden of proof to get rid of. If I write fiction, can I then not "think" of what I write -- only IN what I write? Nah ...
I'm talking about basic theory, i.e. knowing the names of the notes, note values, scales, basic harmony, etc. I know theory is a very wide term, and can mean everything from "What is a C" to "anylize this bassline and build a 4 part harmony following the rules of 16th century counterpart". basics are needed. everything past that is helpful when you already know the basics. It comes down to how much you really want to expand your knowledge and comprehension of music. ----------
Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2012 2:28 PM