We're pretty happy with how it went - though when listening back on the amplified harp (520D GB with a Marble Max) the harp sounds a little too muffled and distorted. It seems to be better if you turn up the volume, it comes to life a little more, but still nothing like it sounded in the studio speakers (realise that's pretty common, just it's much more so with the harp here). There hasn't been anything added to the natural harp sound except some delay.
I've hopefully embedded the tracks below, or the link is http://www.box.com/kingsofeverything-roughmix
So would welcome anyone's input on what to improve with the harp sound (apart from "practice more"). Maybe more presence? We'll be back in the studio to polish up the tracks in a week or two.
The tracks are both covers. "I Ain't Drunk" is Joe Liggins I think, though we have stolen Ian Siegal's arrangement. "Tall Skinny Mama" is a James Harman tune. I borrow heavily from another Harman tune for the solo in Ain't Drunk
The vocals as as well as the harp is me. I'd also welcome any constructive criticism of either.
When you say a little delay was added to the harp do you mean, you had a delay in-line between mic & amp? Or, it was added at the desk? A delay pedal in line can often take the edge off a sound (a lot of guys like them for this very reason). You could have more effect on the harp. If delay off the desk add some reverb (chamber/hall type) too, as delay only often makes the sound "clipped"/short in the studio. A little reverb can halp that delay to "sing" more. Be careful not to swamp the harp, otherwise it'll drop further back in the mix.
When you say you are going to polish up the tracks, do you mean play with the mix & EQ at the desk, or drop on additional takes?
I don't think the harp sound is "bad", kind of puts me in mind of Harman & Lee McBee?
When recording an amp, any amp, place it so that you are able to put your head where the recording mic is. Where the mic is placed on the cone (edge - looser, middle, centre - brighter) & how far away will have a big impact on the recorded sound all else being equal. I start off mic around the middle of the cone, halfway towards the rim from the voice coil, mic anything from 8" to a couple of feet from the speaker. Closer in you are the raspier the sound.
SE amps like Champs & the Marble Max are good tools for recording, but often it's a good idea to start a little backed off, regarding overdrive...when you get the adrenalin pumping & start blowing you sometimes can end up with pushing things harder than anticipated.
If you are looking at going back to adjust the EQ of the recording see if you can "scoop" the mids/lo mids a little and if a little high end will focus the harp a bit better, without going brittle/quacky. A lot of guys seem to think desks have a "Little Walter" or a "Kim Wilson" knob and you can just dial tone into whatever sound they have recorded ;-)... the truth is, it's always best to try and nail it, as best you can, in the room before you start recording.
Guitar is in the right ear only (or left, depending on which way round I have my headphones), is this deliberate? ---------- www.myspace.com/markburness
@5F6H Thanks for listening, and for the useful comments.
The delay was off the desk - I decided not to use my usual Boss pedal and leave it to the engineer. I'll try it with the reverb as you suggest, and look at tweaking the EQ.
The mic was placed about 30/40cm from the speaker and was roughly centric to the cone I think. - I'd had experience with a live recording with a mic placed against the amp that ended up with a very overdriven and practically unusable sound.
I had the Max at about "4 out of 10" for both volume and tone, quite a lot less volume than what I gig with even if I'm mic'ing through the p.a.
And yes, by polish I meant we'll continue mixing and perhaps a basic mastering, and maybe add some bvs and percussion. I don't plan to rerecord the harp tracks, I'm just hoping to get a harp sound that has the liveliness that I hear when gigging.
The pan was the keys and guitarists decision to get some space in the mix. Not convinced on it myself.
Also I'd welcome your views on the performance and musicianship. It's certainly just a hobby band but I'm hoping that we're at a stage now that we can foot it in the London scene without embarrassing ourselves.
Anyone else? I've seen on Box.net that a few people have downloaded the tracks. Any feedback?
Last Edited by on Mar 12, 2012 3:45 PM
"Also I'd welcome your views on the performance and musicianship. It's certainly just a hobby band but I'm hoping that we're at a stage now that we can foot it in the London scene without embarrassing ourselves."
You're not going to embarrass yourselves based on these. Piano drives I Ain't Drunk nicely, it's a bit too much on Tall Mama. Get gigging.
i liked the harp for the most part, in fact if you had not said anything i would not have looked for ways to "improve" the sound. this recording is so much better than a lot of what i hear people do- why the hell would someone post a video done when they were not at their best?- the harp to me is smart and sassy and thick. i have heard so much thin tone it has been sweet to hear something with some meat on its bones!
if you want it cleaner but with the sweet tone still i'd suggest a mc151 crystal like what's in the original jt30's. i have one in a custom built ruskin mic i swapped for with a guy. it's my go-to when things need to be clear and a bit cleaner. but that element can sound so warm at the same time.
my main amps are a silvertone 1482, single 12, about 20 watts. and a replica '59 bassman that stands up pretty well to the originals. crystal mic sounds really fine in both.
but i reiterate- i like your harp tone how it is! my philosophy has always been to go as raw and real as possible in studio. i think too many artists get in a situation where their studio stuff gets the life sucked out of it in the interest of clarity.
oh, and nice on the vocs- phrasing! arrangements pretty cool as well.
in short- my compliments! ---------- http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
Whenever you're in a studio mixing, it's not a good idea to rely solely on reference monitors. A good studio has different speakers and the engineer will switch between them to get an idea of how the mix will sound through different setups. What sounds good on high end monitors and headphones might not sound so good on hi-fi speakers or a car stereo.
About the panning - listening to all 4 tracks, spatially it started to feel a bit samey: guitar in left, keys in right. I'd prefer to hear it mixed according to the track - rather than applying the same pan settings across the whole session. I agree with Mark, a bit of sparkle at the top end will improve the whole mix (not just harp) and will help the instrument separation too.
I put up two more half mixed tracks - one is originally by a Californian blues/r'nb band called the Loved Ones, the second is another James Harman track, Swamp Night. Our originals are still to be mixed
@5F6H Thanks - now we'll see if Aint Nothing But and Round Midnight agree
@jbone Thanks for listening and the compliments. Vocals have been a work in progress for nearly 20 years now. I agree that maybe a crystal mic would sound great on some tracks, must get one as my last one died a while back. Can't really claim any kudos on the arrangements, the Harman is pretty much an edited down version, and as I mentioned the I Aint Drunk track borrowed Ian Siegal's version, which in turn sounds heavily indebted to Hey Pocky Way
By the way, you said you liked the harp "in the most part" - was that the sound or the playing? Always looking for work ons.
@VLUN Thanks for the comments. I'll speak to the guys about the panning, and yes I think that in part my concern about the harp sound was playing it through poor equipment at low volumes - where it sounds (especially on Tall Skinny Mama) a little like a transistor amp buzz rather than picking up the sweeter valve bell-like distortion.
BTW, forgot to add that I thought your singing and harp were great!
There's nothing here that a bit of careful mixing can't fix.
As this is a demo, bear in mind that mp3 and small computer speakers are probably the most likely way that people will access these tracks. mp3 compression will affect the mix; stripping out the very high and very low ends.
mp3 will also further compress the dynamics. At the mastering stage it might be wise to keep the level lower than normal with less compression.
Last Edited by on Mar 13, 2012 3:23 PM
"where it sounds (especially on Tall Skinny Mama) a little like a transistor amp buzz rather than picking up the sweeter valve bell-like distortion."
Interesting observation, part of the problem is your expectation...if you can tell "a tube amp" from "an SS amp" from a recording alone, you have better ears than anyone else I have EVER met, certainly better ears than any Brian May or ZZ top fans!!!:-o
An overdriven single-ended amp hits a mode called "cut off", the single tube cannot handle both positive & especially the negative halves of the wave form (similar sound as with a cold/cool biased, fixed bias push-pull amps, even hot biased fixed-biased amps when driven hard enough - all amps are effectively biased colder, from the waveform's point of view at least, under overdrive...if they were required to maintain enough current to preserve the waveform under overdrive they would catch fire!).
A Marble Max, like a Champ/HG2 will do anything from clean to fuzz, but push it just that little bit and the fuzz comes on quick. It's not a bad thing per se, people often like it, it's been well exploited in well known harp recordings. If you were expecting lots of greasy, sag then a single-ended amp is not the thing to really do it...power supplies are more than adequate, a single tube doesn't pull enough from them for that.
Harman seems to have mostly used fixed bias, push pull amps ...and on Tall Mama and especially Swamp Night you are certainly tapping into that sound, don't let you're pre-conceived, but innacurate, perception of what your amp "should" sound like spoil that for you...you're doing fine. ;-)
If you want to smooth out the amp a little, extend headroom a little, you could try a simple preamp tube swap to 12AU7 or 12BH7, if they don't neuter the amp, or kill bass response? Maybe a greasier, higher current power tube like a TAD6L6WGC? But I don't really think you need to change the amp's MO though, just a little more experience tweaking it for session work. No one is born knowing this stuff, it's learned through experience. The more you do, the better you get. So, keep doing :-)
you and i are so similar in our styles g-h, in fact you may be more polished than i am. i didn't see anything that needed changing. the one thing i'd say though is that James Harman at least a decade ago didn't care for people covering his material. first time i saw him in Dallas someone in the crowd asked him to do a Little Walter song and he was very straight up, said, "man i don't do other guy's stuff and i rather if folks don't do kine". which i took to heart and have not done. he and his guys are huge inspiration though. i should be so lucky as to find guys so good and so willing! i am definitely not knocking my current situation, the duo with my wife, it has been a real positive adventure for me and for us. i have gotten to do some stuff i never would have otherwise and what's on the drawing board is even more exciting! but to have a rhythm section and a total killer guitarist behind me is a very good dream. you said work in progress, that's equally true for me as well. i made a commitment to myself about 10 years ago after a year of no music in my life, and that was to ALWAYS play until i could no more. in that sense i'm as much a work in progress as anyone anywhere. there is so much more to learn and do and at 57 i'm really just getting my feet under me!
keep going the direction you've chosen GH. it's a good one and it's right if it feels right. ---------- http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
I think it sounds great. There are all kinds of things you could throw on the harp--adding reverb to one side of the mix (the harp is mostly centered, meaning it's in both speakers), putting some high mid sparkle--but what finally counts is that you don't sound quite like anybody else. That's good.
@VLUN - thanks for the compliments, and a great suggestion for the final mix and mastering
@56FH - thanks for the post, Mike, a lot to soak in. Yes, you're right that partially this issue is in my preconceptions of amplified tone. But... there still sounds like a difference between the recorded sound and my live sound - I hear more depth and richness, particularly on the Tall Skinny Mama recording
Must admit to being an electronically-disinclined so I'd never researched much into solid end vs push/pull amps. Still trying to figure out how I'd figure out if an amp is push-pull (class A/B?) from a basic spec. I've just stumbled upon the Lone Wolf forum site - looks like if I spend some quality time there I might start absorbing some of this technical stuff. Thanks again, very informative post.
@ jbone Yes that reminds me of the time I met Harman back in 96. I thought that in my naivety that he would be maybe a little surprised, flattered even that a band from a small town in New Zealand was covering his material. His response (I'm sure a fairly stock one) was that "17 bands are covering Swamp Night in California alone. You get a hit out of it be sure to tell me".
So yes we play three of his tunes (hey I just suggest them, it's the others that go along with it) in our set. He's one of my favourite blues songwriters let alone musicians, but I'll make sure we don't start becoming a tribute act.
Have you recorded anything with a full band? I've heard some of your tracks (nice vocals on Down and Dirty and Racetrack Blues, and tasteful and tasty harp on everything) but I don't think I've heard anything amplified.
Thanks again for the words of encouragement - yes after 20 years I think I'm moving along another small step in the right direction.
@kudzurunner - thanks again for listening, and for the mixing suggestions. You might remember that you made a few comments on an earlier post of an earlier recording
http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/board/board_topic/5560960/2609555.htm I think that this time the vocals are more convincing, hope you agree.
@Rubes - thanks, but not nearly as original as your stuff though
Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2012 8:37 AM
hey all, sorry for a thread resurrection here, but you might be curious about the final mix. Four tracks can be found here
http://soundcloud.com/kingsofeverything/tracks
Amazing how much another day's mixing can improve the sound. We almost sound like a proper band!
For the harp, I used all the suggestions mentioned above, thanks again for the input. A little reverb and a boost to the mids improved the sound, though still a little harsh on Tall Skinny Mama to my ears.
Hope you like them - comments and constructive criticisms welcome
@Gambler You're a Kiwi when did you leave us? Play in any bands back here that i might remember? Love your stuff all sounds great to me.The re working on the mix etc did well.
I left way back in 1998. I used to play in a sortof blues band based in New Plymouth (though I'm originally from Wellington), the Early Days Blues Band, more known for stage hijinks than any aspirations towards musical quality. I still play the occasional gig with the previous lead singer, John McClean, who's also based over here. Also have played the odd London gig with ex-Hamilton guitarist Paul Garner, who does his own thing plus back Steve Weston.
You're an Aucklander if I recollect right? We never really got up that way, though played just about everywhere south of the Bombay Hills in the North Island.
What band are you with? I've heard of the Flaming Mudcats in your town, but I'm now pretty sketchy on the local bands.
cheers James
Last Edited by on May 16, 2012 5:04 PM
You're right Gambler I've never heard of your kiwi band but then again you've probably never heard of any of mine ;-) Maybe one,Riverhead Slide?we used to tour a bit. I know Pauls dad ,Mike Garner,great Bluesman. The Flaming Mudcats Harp player(Craig Bracken)would be the best NZ'Chicago' style player I have ever heard,he has got it down.Great band. I'll be in the UK next year so I'll try and get to see you guys.(and Wes Weston)
Agree about Mike, I remember his band "Steppin Out" with Paul on guitar in the mid/late 90s, and his more recent solo stuff is even more impressive
Though for NZ blues harp players, my personal favourite is Terry Casey - must be the Wellington bias! He was part of Chicago Smokeshop back in the late 80s and still occasionally plays with Darren Watson and Bullfrog Rata. Here's a live clip if you don't know his playing, not the best recording though
I hadn't heard Riverhead Slide before - though after a quick google I'm very jealous about the Samoa Blues Festival - now that's a gig!
