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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Upbeat vs. Downbeat?
Upbeat vs. Downbeat?
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ReedSqueal
259 posts
Mar 11, 2012
9:26 PM
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Can someone explain the difference?
So let's say your count is "ONE & TWO & THREE..."
Isn't the "&" the upbeat?
After typing this out, maybe the upbeat is between the ONE and the &. The downbeat is between the & and the TWO? (if that makes sense)
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Go ahead and play the blues if it'll make you happy.
-Dan Castellaneta
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Greg Heumann
1527 posts
Mar 11, 2012
9:27 PM
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You are correct - the "and" is the upbeat. Another way to think about it: beat your foot in time. When your toes are at the top, that's the upbeat.
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/Greg
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ReedSqueal
260 posts
Mar 11, 2012
9:34 PM
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"Another way to think about it: beat your foot in time. When your toes are at the top, that's the upbeat."
In engine talk - Top Dead Center. lol.
Then what is a downbeat?
(Thanks Greg)
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Go ahead and play the blues if it'll make you happy.
-Dan Castellaneta
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timeistight
439 posts
Mar 11, 2012
9:45 PM
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The downbeats are the 1, 2, 3 and 4 (assuming of course that we're talking about 4/4 time).
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ReedSqueal
261 posts
Mar 11, 2012
9:51 PM
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Yes, 4/4.
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Go ahead and play the blues if it'll make you happy.
-Dan Castellaneta
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The Iceman
254 posts
Mar 12, 2012
7:37 AM
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Couldn't the down be 1 and 3 and the up be 2 and 4?
I noticed that white crowds seem to feel the 1 and 3 while black crowds the 2 and 4 - based on how they will sometimes join in with clapping along.
Feeling the 2 and 4 seems to free one from the pull of gravity.
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The Iceman
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barbequebob
1826 posts
Mar 12, 2012
8:13 AM
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Iceman, many times 1 & 3 in many genres works as the down beat. Your observation of how white and back music crowds react to the beats is ON THE MONEY plus often times white crowds will clap to ALL FOUR beats as well, which in a thread about the groove sometime ago I posted about and blind folded, 9 times out of 10, you can pretty much tell who the white and black guy is just from that and playing more off the 2 & 4 is easier to learn to adjust to playing behind the beat (and that comes much more naturally that way) wheras playing more off the 1 % 3, it becomes easier to play ahead of the beat.
The "and" is really both the upbeat and playing behind the beat. What this comes down to is to do something most people in open jams, ESPECIALLY harp players often don't bother taking the time to learn and that's getting your time straight and learning about the groove and how it works because the3y both go hand in and, plus they help give music and more so, the different music genres their distinct indentity and their personality.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Michael Rubin
470 posts
Mar 12, 2012
9:21 AM
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Timing is tone. Tone is king. Have good time, sound good. Have bad time, sound bad. I would much rather listen to a Bob Dylan type with great timing than a wizard technician with bad timing.
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timeistight
440 posts
Mar 12, 2012
9:22 AM
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"Couldn't the down be 1 and 3 and the up be 2 and 4?"
The 2 and 4 are the offbeats (or backbeats as Chuck would have it).
Last Edited by on Mar 12, 2012 9:24 AM
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STME58
90 posts
Mar 12, 2012
1:50 PM
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"Couldn't the down be 1 and 3 and the up be 2 and 4?"
If you are counting cut time in 4 this is mathematical true.
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barbequebob
1827 posts
Mar 13, 2012
8:38 AM
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One example of hearing where the upbeat is would be listen to a piano player playing what's often referred to as stride piano, and drummers often imitate that into a version of what's often known as a flat tire groove and the piano would be playing all the upbeats with chords (even guitars do that at times as well) on all 4 beats.
One thing you might want to do is listen to a lot of uptempo T-Bone Walker recordings and listen to the accompaniment and they;re often more like swinging flat tire grooves and the upbeat is emphasized. Also listen to the original Roy Brown recording of "Good Rocking Tonight," and the piano is doing exactly what I'm talking about, playing chords on the upbeats on all 4 beats in the measure and it's also a good way to learn how to play more behind the beat as well.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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WinslowYerxa
216 posts
Mar 13, 2012
9:07 AM
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The terms upbeat and downbeat originate in how a conductor waves his arms to keep an orchestra in time.
On the last beat of the bar, the conductor raises his or her right arm. That's the UPBEAT, because the arm is going up.
Following the upbeat, the conductor lets his or her right arm drop to signal the first beat of the bar. That's the DOWNBEAT.
(The point at which the arm hit bottom and bounces back up is where the beat actually happens.)
The beats in between are the beats in between.
This is true regardless of time signature.
The term "upbeat" sems to have gotten a bit vague over time. And beats other than the first beat of the bar may receive emphasis.
But the downbeat is *always* and *exclusively* the first beat of the bar.
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Last Edited by on Mar 13, 2012 9:09 AM
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timeistight
446 posts
Mar 13, 2012
9:18 AM
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I think the terms are used differently in "non-classical" music.
I got these definitions from Dr. Matt Warnock's Modern Time: : Rhythmic Fundamentals for the Improvising Musician:
Downbeat
The term downbeat is used to describe any note that falls on a “numbered” beat within a bar. This means that in a bar of 2/4, there are two downbeats on 1 and 2. For a bar of 3/4, there are three downbeats on 1, 2 and 3, and for a bar of 4/4 there are four, on 1, 2, 3 and 4. Downbeats in this book are normally quarter notes, as we are mostly dealing with time signatures of 2/4, 3/4, and 4/4, but they can be other durations such as eighth notes in a bar of 3/8, or half notes in a bar of 2/2.
Upbeat
This term is used to describe the notes that occur between the downbeats within a measure. Basically, any rhythmic duration that occurs between beats 1 and 2, 2 and 3, 3 and 4, etc. are considered an upbeat. For example, if you had a bar of 4/4 that contained eight, eighth-notes, the first, third, fifth and seventh eighth-notes would be the downbeats, while the second, fourth, sixth and eighth eighth-notes would be the upbeats.
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Jim Rumbaugh
689 posts
Mar 13, 2012
10:09 AM
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After reading the 2 previous posts, I am reminded of a quote I stole from a computer programer.
"The nice thing about standards, is that there are so many of them"
:)
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HarmoniCollege March 24, 2012
theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
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WinslowYerxa
217 posts
Mar 13, 2012
10:22 AM
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@timeistight
sigh - -Not all jazz musicians would agree with Dr. Warnock's definition. My formal musical education has been as much a jazz education as a classical one, and the term downbeat always had the same meaning no matter who used the term.
Warnock's definition makes the term "downbeat" synonymous with "beat" - so there's really no point in using the term at all.
What he's talking about is notes that fall either on the beat or between the beats. Why bother to change these names to downbeat and upbeat?
The very fact that so much discussion has occurred, with conflicting definitions and confusion, points to why it's a bad idea to change the meanings of terms to cover terms and meanings that already exist.
Here are a few of the online sources that agree with my understanding:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_%28music%29
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/downbeat
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/downbeat
Jazz definitions:
http://people.virginia.edu/~skd9r/MUSI212_new/materials/definitions1.html (scroll down to downbeat)
Here and there in searching for online definitions, I came across the "every beat of the bar is a downbeat" definition, but it seems to be a secondary meaning. Frankly, I think that it's pointless and confusing.
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timeistight
448 posts
Mar 13, 2012
10:35 AM
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"What he's talking about is notes that fall either on the beat or between the beats. Why bother to change these names to downbeat and upbeat?"
How would you describe those "non-beat eighth notes" then? Just say "play chords on the ands", for example?
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WinslowYerxa
218 posts
Mar 13, 2012
10:46 AM
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@timeistight.
"And" defines the halfway point between two beats.
Here are the standard ways of counting (in jazz as well as in classical).
If you divide the beat in two, then you count:
One - and - Two - and - Three - and - Four - and
If you divide the beat in three, you count:
One -trip -let, Two - trip - let, etc.
If you divide the beat in four, you count:
One - ee - and - a, Two - ee - and - a, etc.
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VOTE Winslow Yerxa for SPAH president, with L J Atkison for vice president
Winslow for SPAH President (Facebook)
Winslow4prez (Youtube)
Chair, SPAH entertainment committee
Chair, SPAH awards committee
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ReedSqueal
262 posts
Mar 13, 2012
10:52 AM
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My head hurts ;-)
But from what Greg said I am now able to learn the new song I have been working on that had notes where I had to come in on the upbeat - which was a new concept for me after ingraining coming in on the beat each and every time [while learning the 12 bar / I-IV-V structure.]
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Go ahead and play the blues if it'll make you happy.
-Dan Castellaneta
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WinslowYerxa
219 posts
Mar 13, 2012
11:08 AM
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re music that's notated in 4/4 that's really in 2.
What he's talking about is "cut time." And I think his statement is several decades out of date if you listen to current music.
You may have seen notated music that has a time signature of 4/4 (one four on top of another).
You may also have seen music that has a big "C" instead of the 4/4.
And you may have seen the big "C" with a vertical line struck through it, similar to the symbol for "cents" (as in hundredths of a dollar).
The "C" symbols are holdovers from an 12th century system called mensural notation that also used circles and dots, and it all had mystical meaning. More on that another time.
"C" without the stroke through it means 4/4.
"C" with the stroke through it means cut time.
So, what is cut time? It's synonymous with 2/2.
2/2 has two half-notes in a bar, which lasts the same amount of time as a bar of 4/4 (four quarter notes). Both two half notes and four quarter notes add up to one whole note.
Cut-time music in American popular usage tends to flow freely back and forth between 2/2 (One - and - Two - and) and 4/4 (One - Two - Three - Four).
When that happens:
1 remains 1
1 + (1 and) becomes 2
2 becomes 3
2 + becomes 4
Think of early rockabilly, where the beat behind the vocal verse is going along at a relaxed cut-time lope:
1 + 2 + , 1 + 2 +
The bass player is hitting notes on just the 1 and 2 and mostly leaving the 'ands' alone. The 'ands' are being sounded maybe on the snare drum or hi-hat or rhythm guitar, with everything adding up in a sort of boom-chuck pattern, with the "boom" being the beat and the "chuck" being the 'and.' (Or the guitar could be doing both the boom and the chuck - think Johnny Cash).
But then the singer yells something like "Well all right!!" and the band cuts to the guitar solo, and now the bass player is walking the bass line and hitting the 'ands' as if they were beats:
1 2 3 4, 1 2 3 4
The tempo hasn't changed but it feels twice as fast because the notes that were between the beats are now being treated as beats - the band has switched from the basic 2/2 of cut time into 4/4.
Meanwhile, the drummer and maybe the rhythm guitarist is hitting the 'ands' between the 4/4 beats:
1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +
After the hot guitar break, the band drops back into 2/2 and everyone relaxes until the next hot moment. But theyre posied and ready to go . . .
Almost all popular music used to be in cut time when it wasn't in march time (2/4, or sometimes 6/8, which is just two beats that each divide into three) or 3/4 time for a waltz.
But from about the 1940s forward, jazz started to be really in 4/4 all the time, and rock and pop followed.
Blues started to be mainly in 4/4 in the mid-to-late 1940s. For cut-time blues, think of the earliest versions of "Good Morning Little Schoolgirl," or "Digging My Potatoes," or "Tell me, Mama." And "Got My Mojo Workin'" is really in 2/2 with a modified backwards clave overlaid. But don't start me to talkin' . . .
Country was probably the last holdout for cut time. But now, every time I listen to new country, it sounds like 30-year old rock :) that's in 4/4.
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Last Edited by on Mar 13, 2012 11:22 AM
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timeistight
449 posts
Mar 13, 2012
11:13 AM
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@Winslow: I think my question was unclear. Let me try again:
You're saying it's confusing to call the non-beat eighths in a measure of 4/4 "upbeats". What should we call them then?
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WinslowYerxa
220 posts
Mar 13, 2012
11:34 AM
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@timeistight.
Call the non-beat eighths notes "ands."
As in:
"On the and of the upbeat, could you sock the open high hat and then close it on the downbeat, and then tick on the closed hat on the rest of the beats, but hit the snare with the brush on the ands? And rhythm guitar, could you pop a bass note on the down beat but then join the hi-hat with a lightly brushed chord on the ands as well?"
The confusion comes because an "upbeat" is an on-the-beat note - the one at the end of the bar. So how could it also be a note that's between the beats?
I admit to a temptation to call between-the-beat notes upbeats. but that way confusion lies. because then you have to clarify:
"Do you want the sugar-free that doesn't contain any sugar at all, or the sugar-free where they just didn't add any extra sugar on top of the sugar that's already there?" (I actually had this conversation recently.)
Or:
"Do you mean the upbeat that's on the beat or the upbeat that's between the beats?"
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VOTE Winslow Yerxa for SPAH president, with L J Atkison for vice president
Winslow for SPAH President (Facebook)
Winslow4prez (Youtube)
Chair, SPAH entertainment committee
Chair, SPAH awards committee
Member, SPAH convention planning committee
Staff, SPAH Convention event operation
Last Edited by on Mar 13, 2012 11:36 AM
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kudzurunner
3083 posts
Mar 13, 2012
11:41 AM
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Whew! Don't mess with Winslow on this one. I thought I knew something about beats, but I learned something there.
The term "downbeat" does have one unassailable meaning, I think: it's the stressed first beat of a measure. In funk, players talk about "hitting hard on the one," meaning hitting that first downbeat hard and square, right on the beat. The funk song called "Do the Bump" or somesuch is an example of this. So is "Play that Funky Music, White Boy." The first note of the signature riff is smack on the downbeat of 1; it's that very first "bump": Bump-bump boomp-ba-boomp
But things grow amazingly murky after that, especially if you're talking about popular music, and even more if you're talking about black music, broadly defined.
Most blues (John Lee Hooker) and rock and roll ("Rock Around the Clock" being the classic example) stress the 2 and 4, the second and fourth beat in a four beat measure. One TWO three FOUR. Imagine your foot keeping the one and three while you clap your hands hard on two and four. That's the beat I use on "Home to Mississippi." It's the beat anybody uses when they call out a beat and snap their fingers on 2 and 4. Try it. You'll see what I mean.
Are the 2 and four offbeats, or stressed upbeats? I don't care what you call them. They are what they are.
Things grow murkier, though, when you start playing shuffles (triplet rhythms) or funk (where each of the four beats is subdivided into four sixteenth notes).
With shuffles, most drummers accent the four upbeats or offbeats to a greater or lesser extent while maintaining a loping groove that results from the down beat being twice as long as the upbeat: one-UH two-UH three-UH four-UH. Each drummer adds a slightly different amount of stress. "Kansas City" is the classic example of what I'm talking about; so is the so-called Texas shuffle, with a steady upbeat strum. But it's also possible to drum a shuffle as a so-called double shuffle, where the drummer is hitting two consecutive snare shots--one on the third triplet in each triplet, the next on the "downbeat" of the following triplet.
In funk, each downbeat--1, 2, 3, and 4--is followed by three up- or off-beats: the early, middle, and late offbeat. ThEach of those can be stressed, depending on the kind of groove you're looking for. The magic lies WITHIN each beat, and in the way the interior offbeats are stressed, rather than the way that beats 2 and 4 (for example) are stressed. I stumbled across the mysteries of funk when I tried to tab out "Cissy Strut."
Last Edited by on Mar 13, 2012 11:44 AM
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lumpy wafflesquirt
543 posts
Mar 13, 2012
11:48 AM
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Starting on the upbeat is also termed an anacrusis :^)
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"Come on Brackett let's get changed"
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Jim Rumbaugh
690 posts
Mar 13, 2012
3:11 PM
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Here is Jimi Lee's definition of TEEN BEAT from "Every Groove a Bluesman Needs to Know". In his definition, he touches on upbeat and backbeat mentioned above.
"Teen Beat is a sixties term mostly referring to the drums. Commonly used with surf music but is great for rock n' roll and rock type blues, giving it new snap with snare on beat two and also beat two-and or some say "the and of two". The and beat is also called the up beat because it's when your foot comes up. Backbeat refers to beats two and four. It was a new sound in America that came with blues and then rock 'n roll. With blues and rock people would feel the backbeat now and clap on beats two and four instead of one and three, which is where the pulse was in the 19th century. You might say Teen Beat gives the backbeat an up beat feel, a mouthful indeed"
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HarmoniCollege March 24, 2012
theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
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