laurent2015
31 posts
Mar 04, 2012
5:20 PM
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Hi,
Are there tricks to find the key of a cut only with the chords grid, either major or minor.
I mean, is it essential to analyse ALL the chords to find the key?
One strange thing could be that once the key found, the corresponding note doesn't appear anywhere in the music.
Yet noticed it, or am I crazy?
Last Edited by on Mar 04, 2012 7:28 PM
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timeistight
427 posts
Mar 04, 2012
6:30 PM
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"Are there tricks to find the key of a cut only with the chords grid, either major or minor."
Not tricks really, just patterns you learn to recognize.
"I mean, is it essential to analyse ALL the chords to find the key?"
No, but don't forget that the key can change during the song.
"One strange thing could be that once the key finded, the corresponding note doesn't appear anywhere in the music.
Yet noticed it, or am I crazy?"
Do you have an example?
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laurent2015
32 posts
Mar 04, 2012
7:42 PM
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These chords: A Em G A
It's in a major key, but which one?
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billy_shines
145 posts
Mar 04, 2012
7:56 PM
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try a D harp or a C harp see which one works
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timeistight
428 posts
Mar 04, 2012
8:01 PM
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Probably the song is in A. D harp in second/
Last Edited by on Mar 05, 2012 2:06 AM
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laurent2015
33 posts
Mar 05, 2012
3:10 AM
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Thank you, this was merely theory.
Actually the key is D major, though the note doesn't appear.
If it was A, the chord E (5th degree) would have been major, I think, and if C, degree VI (A) would have been minor.
In my question, I asked for possible tricks.
For example, can we say that if there's a minor chord on degree II, it means that the key is necessarly major?
If yes, the key is found.
Or a diminished chord on degree VII would necessarly mean that the key is major?
You see, a trick "just-have-a-look" and find.
Also for minor keys.
Last Edited by on Mar 05, 2012 3:21 AM
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GamblersHand
341 posts
Mar 05, 2012
3:45 AM
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@laurent
It sounds like you know this, but usually for non-complex songs in major scale the chords are based on:
I IIm IIIm IV V VIm VIIdim
e.g. in C Major
CEG DFA EGB FAC GBD ACE BCF
Quite often the weird diminished chord is replaced with a flat 7th major chord - i.e. BbCF
However these rules are often broken in a lot of music, often to give a more unsettling effect
In your example, my trick would be to know the "order of sharps" (there's probably a technical term but I learned some theory by picking up on patterns) aligned to the circle of 5ths
i.e. F# C# G# D#
in G, with one sharp, has the F# only
A, with 3 sharps, has F# C# and G#
So I would see the Amajor AC#E, with two sharps, and the Eminor EGB which does not have the third sharp.
Therefore the song has two sharps only - D major (probably)
You can use a similar approach to flat keys, with "the order of flats" being
F Bb Eb Ab etc
As for whether it's a minor key, that's sometimes quite arbitrary. Your example could be in the key of Bm (natural minor scale), it would just depend on where the song tends to resolve.
If there was a Cmajor chord (ie a flat 7th chord) it would definitely indicate a major scale (Myxolidian? with a flat 7th)
Some songs can modulate between major and relative minor - one example is "Mr Jones" - Am in the verse, but a definite Cmajor feel in the chorus, at least to my ears
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Greyowlphotoart
928 posts
Mar 05, 2012
4:02 AM
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Just bashed out those chords (A Em G A) on guitar and heard Ringo Starr's/George Harrison 'It don't come easy'
.....'You got to pay your dues if you want to play the blues and you know it don't come easy'
Made me smile:)
Listening to George Harrison's version he appeared to be playing it in the key of D. Chords D, Am, C, & D
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Grey Owl YouTube
Grey Owl Abstract Photos
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laurent2015
34 posts
Mar 05, 2012
7:41 AM
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Gamblershand,
This circle of fifths has really an unexpected range.
I think I figured out what you meant, but need looking into all this.
Rules are not all (there is a recent thread about that) but when I'm not sure, I become stubborn and it stretches my nerves.
Thanks anyway.
@Greyowl: maybe he plays in D, but then we should have a A major chord; probably feelings not always comply with the rules...
Thanks also!
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timeistight
429 posts
Mar 05, 2012
8:15 AM
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You can't always apply the rules of diatonic harmony to rock or folk songs.
Beatles "Good Morning, Good Morning" uses the chords A Em G A and it's in A. Lots of rock songs (Gloria, Sympathy for the Devil) are based around I, IV and bVII chords. It gives them a Mixolydian flavour.
Last Edited by on Mar 06, 2012 10:00 AM
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laurent2015
37 posts
Mar 06, 2012
9:44 AM
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Thanks timeistight.
I have still a lot to learn!
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