I was surprised to learn in another recent thread that the harmonica playing in tunes like this is not music. Well call me tone-deaf, I like 'em anyway. What are your favorites?
The guitar work and vocals are music, but not the harp work.
To be fair (for a change) the train sounds in the examples above are used sort of as a condiment instead of the main thrust. If you were a trumpet player auditioning for a symphonic orchestra, you may well be asked to play some variations on the Carnival of Venice. I think the "train" equates to this on harp. They are very individualized and can include quite technical components.....but often not.
Wouldn't a good trumpeter be expected to be able to produce the "horse whinney". That seems to me to be another example of an effect, like a train sound, that may not be musical but can be appropriate and entertianing at the right time.
great post easyreeder, imho if people stomp there feet to it, it's music, maybe not my kind of music, but it's music. Charlie McCoy is definitely music.
Anyway is that a G harp in the Frieght Train Boogie?
"Every sound we here is a note. A note is just a sound with a specific frequency."
Then you (the collective you and not 7LimitJI) need to concede that things like hip-hop, rap, and electronica are music. ;)
My general thoughts on train stuff (which assumes you are interested in public performance and not just jamming at home) -
The number of people who want to hear more than 3 minutes of that stuff are extremely limited. If I went to see a show and train rhythms made up the bulk of the material, I would lose interest right away - unless it was some sort of historical perspective thing. In the real world of playing for people, it has very limited uses.
FWIW, I learned to start playing by chording melodies like When the Saints Go Marching in and Oh, Susanna. As I got more proficient with single note playing, I could practice breathing via scales and patterns.
For a time, I was very into pattern playing. I would say I was able to execute the patterns at Popper-like speeds and my breathing was very advanced. I can fake a few train rhythms with that background, but I wouldn't say I am really good at it. When I try to learn something like that now, the difficulty is always the tonguing and not the breathing. The rhythms are something I can feel and hear, but my articulation for the rhythm is sometimes slow. I don't, though, feel like I've created a gap in may playing as a result of not learning more trains.
The same is true of beatboxing...my mind moves faster than my mouth. When playing harp, though, my breathing moves faster than my mind.
Unless you are trying to do a set like a Joe Filisko, I think train rhythms are very limiting and inefficient for learning beyond just becoming familiar with the approach. They are a cool way to mix things up or maybe create a moment within a set, but in general, to adopt that style - which I am not accusing anyone really specific of - isn't going to let you do a lot of playing with others.
Solo vamping would be a much better tool to learn harmonica chording in a context that is useable. I find solo harp songs like the Sonny Boy stuff to be a much better learning tool. For starters, they don't require you to play harmonica the whole song. They teach you the idea of call and response, of feeling the chord changes, creating a counter-point, how to keep internal time, how to count a progression, how to use harmony, and how to accompany a singer.
The limitation, again, is that you can't really do a bunch of solo harp at most venues and get away with it. I think if you deliver it more as a cool musical moment rather than just another song on the set list, you'd have better luck. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
Last Edited by on Feb 22, 2012 10:00 PM
Train Rhythms are useful in learning to breathe the harmonica and understand musculature used, even building up stamina. I liken them to a tool used to increase awareness and skill.
They have a place in reproducing vintage sounds, a la Filisko. Occasionally someone will work on a complex and ever faster rhythm to show off this sound, which is fun to listen to once or twice, but doesn't resonate with me like pure musical ideas. However, the general audience that liked "The Little Midget With The Big Harmonica" stuff usually goes for this. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by on Feb 22, 2012 10:41 PM
I play a Sonny Terry/Paul Lamb style number called Whoop and Holler. It took an age to learn,and its still not as I'd like.
I don't like to practise it, and the only time I play it is at a gig and only then if I'm in the mood,or running out of numbers.
But,when I do,the audience love it.I had folk dancing on top of tables in Glasgow!
I can only suffer one or two Sonny Terry numbers before getting bored and would not inflict it on anyone all night.
I'd still recommend learning it though as you learn how to keep a groove going. Also it DOES impress people when you do it, especially if you can do the whoops too.
@timeistight It's a surprise to many, but harmonica was his first instrument, before guitar. (BTW, the comments under that youtube video are off the mark. This recording is from "Elementary Doc Watson")
The modern harmonica was invented in the early 1800's, the guitar was invented in 15th century, nearly 400 years earlier. If you are talking about the sheng, that was invented 3000 years ago.
we play mostly blues tunes, but when we pull out mystery train... that old twostep comes on strong. always fun to get them dancing and that is what that kind of harp playing is all about! ask them and they will say, now THAT was music. the typical audience member is not into naval gazing solos and tire of shredding much faster than this type of harmonica playing
So someone out there thinks that 'freight train boogie' aint music?.......i feel sorry for anyone who thinks like that, man its chuggin like this that got me interested in the first place.
The harp part is a fundamental part of the song. It seems very odd to isolate it and claim it's not music. It seems odd in the same way that it would be odd to point out that a chair leg isn't a chair. And are the drums also not music, just sound effects?
"It seems very odd to isolate it and claim it's not music."
Odd, and absurd.
This one's fun, until about 2:45 into it when he starts playing all sort of single notes and gets all musical and shit. Fortunately he finds his inner train again after that. ;^D
Damn! Now that's good! One of my favorite players. Hakan can play any type of music a person wants to hear. ---------- Wisdom does not always come with old age. Sometimes old age arrives alone.
music:an art of sound in time that expresses ideas and emotions in significant forms through the elements of rhythm, melody, harmony, and color.
By that definition train chugs are indeed music. As is rap, electronica, etc as was mentioned :) But then since I compose a lot of electronic music I would not argue that fact anyway :)
I wonder if this thread isn't missing the forest by looking at one tree. And one branch of one tree.
Now I will go on record as stated I am a fan of chugging rythyms. But that train is just one aspect of that style of playing. I put any type of chordal vamps in this category, Horn lines, etc. And even single notes can be chugged on.
Would I want to listen to an hour of train songs? Hmm can't really say but I think if it was well done then I would not get to bored. However I can't think of player that only does the rythyms and never plays any sort of other run. Could be wrong on that :)
Dunno seems like this is making a mountain out an anthill :)
"I wonder if this thread isn't missing the forest by looking at one tree. And one branch of one tree."
In my original post there was a very important question asked which, if answered, might have kept this thread on track (pun intended). The question was:
Wow, easyreeder, thanks for the Hakan and Mike Stevens posts! Terrific. I think Mike is one of the best players I've met, great guy too, very willing to share. He has played the Opry many times, is a 2 time grammy winner and has won Canadian musician of the year on several occasion, kind of an unsung player in the states.
Since we're talking about champions. I love the nonchalance, and unstated "I can do this with one hand tied behind my back." Also, Deford Bailey did the best train whistle imitation I've ever heard.
EDIT: I have read that Bailey had polio as a child, but it didn't occur to me until I posted that remark that perhaps it left him with a disabled arm. I don't know whether that's the case or not, I've seen a couple of photos of him holding the harp in his right hand, but the photos may have been flipped, or perhaps it was just a pose. Regardless, it's impressive what he could do with so little apparent effort.
What the heck,guys? Music, not music. Whatever tight little categories we'd try to squeeze it into or out of, I think train rhythms are music with a sense of humor!
Musical comedy, if you will. Makes folks smile, even laugh. Sweet.
