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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Cacophony Pervades... 4 DOA after Local Gig
Cacophony Pervades... 4 DOA after Local Gig
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Lonesome Harpman
67 posts
Feb 20, 2012
7:04 AM
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How would you guys handle the postmortem of a night when your band died a rather undignified death? Here is the headline of a fictitious review.
Cacophony Pervades, 4 DOA after local gig.
Yes friends it wad so bad that the drummer and bass player want a band meeting? Oh geez, I hate these uncomfortable moments.
Here is where you all come in. How will I tell my prima donna guitar player that it was partially his problem? He thinks he walks on water, but clearly he was wet beyond the soles of his shoes! How will I tell him, he screwed up the timing and the verses of the songs he wrote himself? How can I begin a discussion with someone who blames the drummer for every bad night or should I say drummers (4 in the past 2 years)?
What is the best way you have found to get compromise with difficult people? We need agreement on number 1. Having a set list 2.Organizing the set list. Our Guitar player doesn't like any organized approach. What about volume issues? Have you found a way to compromise with your guitar player? Mine is perhaps a wee bit loud at times, I won't mention his name here on the forum but his initials are Marshall Doublestacks Sr.
I really enjoy playing with these guys when we do get it right. It is a cop out to say, I'll just quit and form my own band because I don't want to deal with these kind of issues! Nor will I go it alone, mostly playing in a closet, begging my 5 internet fans to listen to my rather tired diatribe on the music industries languid state. No Way I'm going to give up, I actually enjoy playing, and want to make this work. Please share your positive thoughts on how you have gotten through these set backs?
Last Edited by on Feb 20, 2012 9:13 AM
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dougharps
167 posts
Feb 20, 2012
7:24 AM
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My opinion:
Try to avoid the blame game, and focus on making good music. If you all are committed to the band making good music, discuss the places that it went wrong, and rehearse more. If there is not a commitment to working through the problems, then you are better off moving on now, instead of later.
Record future gigs so that you have an objective record and can identify where the problems are, and how to correct them.
Part of becoming a band is working through this stuff, and improving the music without a big clash of egos. It really doesn't matter if one or all of you made mistakes. What matters is correcting the problems and not repeating them.
Captcha... try again!
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Doug S.
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Lonesome Harpman
68 posts
Feb 20, 2012
7:47 AM
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Thanks Doug! "Try to avoid the blame game" We did have a videographer capture this gig. I think it actually made a couple of them nervous.
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Honkin On Bobo
966 posts
Feb 20, 2012
7:50 AM
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Well, one tried and true method of dealing with difficult people is to accentuate their positive before mentioning the negative. So with the guitarist it might be something like "dude, I LOVE your tone on that one, and that solo you took melted my face........ Hey, you know, on your tunes, I think OUR timing was a little off, we need to tighten that up, I mean YOUR tunes deserve our best effort, ya know?."
Of course problems with the above include:
1. Kissing an asshat's ass is NO fun, some people just can't bring themselves to do it, rightly so.
2. The drummer and bass player will probably look at you like your from Mars (or strangle you), unless you've clued them in to your strategy.
3. The true dyed-in-the-wool asshat may feed of what they perceive in your approach as weakness and become even more insufferable/intractable, which could cause you to hang a left hook on him.
Hard to say without having a real good handle on all the personalities involved. Also, understanding what amount of leverage you do or don't have is key.
You have my sympathies....not good times.
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Lonesome Harpman
69 posts
Feb 20, 2012
8:11 AM
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Well said Honkin! You know that worked before. We posted some songs on the internet, the song that had the most hits and the only one that anyone commented on was not one of his originals. So, he stopped playing it at gigs. I told him it was our best song because he played the hell out of it. Like magic huh?
THANK YOU!
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MrVerylongusername
2237 posts
Feb 20, 2012
1:44 PM
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Honkin' makes some really good points.
Some other stuff you might want to think about: Who cues off who? Who is the guitarist taking cues from? vocals? drums? bass? Is the bass driving the band? are the drums?
Our bass player is a metronomic groove monster - she drives the music. The drummer just wants just vocals and her bass in his monitor. Recently we had to train a dep bass player, he was great considering the time he had to learn the set, but he didn't drive the band in the same way. The drummer confessed to having to up his game and take control: as he rightly should. He did well, but the change of dynamic was noticeable. Not inferior - just very different.
We also have a dep drummer. He unfortunately cues from the guitarist
whose timing isn't so hot. Guitarist needs the drummer: the drummer's listening to the guitarist. Result? the bass player has to up her game and get both of them to lock into her groove, eye contact, bouncing headstocks, stamping feet - whatever it takes.
We've been playing together long enough to figure all this stuff out, but it has been a journey.
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jbone
793 posts
Feb 20, 2012
3:04 PM
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who actually leads this band? that is a vital question. leadership is no easy task but it is necessary lest you end up in anarchy and disarray.
these folks are right, it is not about whose fault it is in the final run, it's about a dedication to correcting problems and improving the total sound.
i also go by what my mama always told me- don't lie and don't kiss ass or you will end up lied to and disrespected. a true business approach is needed to process information about the nuts and bolts of a band. an honest but nonthreatening inventory of the good and the bad is how i've processed in the past.
no, currently i am not in a band, i am in a duo with my wife and we manage to keep things smooth and level most of the time. we are a team which is in the business of playing what we love and like, and sharing it with people. we spend the time going over stuff frequently and honing our material and our chops on a constant basis.
i have been part of between 12 and 20 bands for anything from a few days to close to 3 years. i have co-founded a band, put together a jam night band for a weekly gig, been in and out of duos and trios, and worked with full tilt 2-guitar bands with drums, bass, keys, and occasional brass. also worked as a sideman and sub frontman when the opportunity arose. working with other people on a common goal can be a huge frustration and it an be a huge reward. it will teach one about one's own shortcomings if one is open to it.
the volume and timing issue is a hard one sometimes. just being in a band at all means compromise for most if not all parties. important question to ask is, does the drummer set a solid bottom line? another is, does the bassman lay a solid groove? is the songwriter/guitarist actually falling off time there? no matter who wrote the songs or if they are covers, one must be really sure before even bringing these things up. it does not have to be a confrontation although i've seen it turn into one several times. it's information which needs to be addressed and solutions determined and implemented. and it is not easy when it's about different agendas and viewpoints. and skill levels.
i'm interested to hear what comes of this situation. it's never too late to learn something!
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KingBiscuit
158 posts
Feb 21, 2012
7:09 AM
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I agree it's not a blame game. That being said, when someone continually turns their volume up to the point of being painful to the audience, it's time to place blame on them. They alone are personally responsible for the volume knob on their amp.
I've seen the guy Lonesome is referring to play at jams and gigs both. HE DOESN'T GET IT. He has been asked repeatedly to turn down and he continues to play extremely loud and then get louder if that is possible. Spectators start leaving because the volume feels like someone is sticking an ice pick in your ear.
He's a talented guy, he just doesn't understand that louder doesn't mean better. He plays so loud that there are no dynamics in his playing. The human ear can only stand so much, once you pass that threshold, it just becomes noise.
Last Edited by on Feb 21, 2012 7:15 AM
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walterharp
820 posts
Feb 21, 2012
7:56 AM
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our guitarist must hear himself loudest in the mix. we have solved the problem by 1) getting his amp on a stand pointing directly toward his head (not directly toward the audience) and 2) micing his amp and getting him even more back through the monitor. this means the audience and rest of the band is not getting swamped, but he can hear himself in the mix the way he wants.
on the other front, i would maybe consider not talking to bass and drum outside then trying to manipulate guitarist. it all needs to be out front. the recordings certainly help there
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Greg Heumann
1488 posts
Feb 21, 2012
8:08 AM
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Remember what the goal is in the first place - making good enough music that audiences want to hear more and therefore you get more gigs and make money. If everyone agrees to the goal first, that can be a good reminder that everyone has to work toward that goal.
If the guitar player has a timing issue, the video should show it - let the video show him, because that is "objective". But it could also be partly because the drummer ain't hittin' hard enough and he can't hear him, or the bass and drums aren't locked up well.
Some people "hear" these issues better than others. I wish I were one of them, but the guitar player in my band is particularly good at it. We've been together long enough that the band knows that when he expresses a concern at rehearsal, he's usually right. And he is constructive about it. So we rehearse until we fix the problem - and we end up sounding better.
The guit player sounds pretty thick. You may need extreme measures. If in the end you're not going to be able to meet the goal, an option is to quit the band. If it is about volume, go back to the goal - like - "if nobody can hear the harp player, why am I here? Do you want a harp player in the band? Then turn the fuck down." If that doesn't work, stop playing every time he gets too loud. Just stop. When he asks why you stopped, you ask "why should I play - nobody can hear me because you won't come down." You do that at a show or two if you have to, and he will either "get it" or its time to leave anyway.
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/Greg
Last Edited by on Feb 21, 2012 8:09 AM
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timeistight
370 posts
Feb 22, 2012
12:02 PM
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So, how did the band meeting go?
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Lonesome Harpman
70 posts
Feb 22, 2012
5:11 AM
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Thanks everyone! The meeting went OK, I knew something was wrong prior to the meeting becuase even though we've had a mild winter it was icy cold in that room. Turns out that I was waving my arms to signal them to bring the volume down. They felt it was unprofessional for me to show the audience we had an issue, I should have waited until the set was over to discuss it. We played one set, but who's counting. I should not have said, "It would be nice if I had a chance to play" in front of the audience. I guess I was acting as if I was totally pissed off and the band thinks it wasn't the place to vent frustration, that I should have least pretended to play, yes that's what the guitar player really said. I took Greg's route and just stopped playing, the guitar player said it totally screwed him up not having the harp in the mix and that I should have been embarrassed to just stand there. Both the bass player and guitar player said that I was blasting them and i was loud enough. We had a guy actually in the audience who told them differently but he wasn't at the meeting. I am going to take Walterharp's route and get him blasting through the monitor back in his face. We will add another powered mixer and two monitors for that purpose. We just have vocals, some harp and my sax in the monitors and mains now. I don't want his guitar in my mix so I am going to try to separate it.
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