waltertore
1990 posts
Feb 19, 2012
8:23 AM
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I continue to be intriqued with how to get an amplified hand held compressed sound while using a harp rack. The amplified harp rack concept presents many obstacles and even more when recording. I do no overdubbing. Everything is done in live time so things are not isolated like most recordings done today. The drums, vocals, harp, keys, guitar, all bleed to some degree into each other. The vocal and harp rack mic are only about 5 inches apart from each other. The mic used for the amplifed harp picks up my voice and the disorted sound greatly affects the overall sound of the vocals. Conversely, the vocal mic picks up the muffled harp that is insulated to try and achieve the compressed sound and this adds acoustic sounds to the amplified harp sound. Here are some examples of it with the vocal track alone, the harp track alone, and finally the finished song. The isolated tracks are taken right from the mastering so they are at the same volume as in the finished song. Walter
I used that round, gray, pipe insulation foam for this experiment and duct taped it to my harp rack.
vocal mic with muffled acoustic harp bleed( you can hear the drums, cymbal, guitar bleeding as well)
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=11449732
vocal bleed into amplified harp rack mic
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=11449729
final mix of song
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=11449726
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
3,500+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Feb 19, 2012 10:05 AM
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billy_shines
100 posts
Feb 19, 2012
9:56 AM
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i have an ash wood block that harps pop into with a shure unidyne up the center alla john mayall. it has the buzzy sound and the hands around sound. try a wood holder with a unidyne element and the rack angled so you have to turn your head and look at your guitar hand when playing. then turn your head to the audience and sing through you vocal mic. the wood insulates against feedback you could also put a footswitch to switch the mics back and forth.
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waltertore
1991 posts
Feb 19, 2012
10:09 AM
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Hi Billy: thanks for sharing that info. Do you have any audio samples of your set up? I can't be moving around. that involves thinking and my music is all about spontaneous. I have been playing in the same position for over 40 years and it is natural to me by now. the foot switch is a no go too because my feet are busy on the drum pedals and again to think of leaving them to be pushing pedals requires thinking. Thinking kills what I do instantly. It is like if someone came up to you while you were playing an pulled the plugs out and knocked you over. The more I share what I do the more I realize how different an approach it really is. It seems normal to me and it creates an interesting puzzle. I enjoy the challenge of making recordings that will stand up with professionaly and conventionally done stuff. the good news I play no louder than speaking volume so feedback is never an issue in the studio or live. I am curious about these dummies the health profession uses for training. I hear they practice operations and such on them for training and the makeup is similar to human flesh, bone, muscle, tendions. I would like to get a couple of the hands and shape them around the harp or at least get some of the material and wrap a harp in it. I am pretty satified with the sound I am getting with the pipe insulation. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
3,500+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Feb 19, 2012 4:06 PM
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waltertore
1992 posts
Feb 19, 2012
3:15 PM
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here are some more from this afternoon. Walter
slow deep lovin
women, money, drugs, tempation everywhere
when sleep falls
our children cry in their pillows
easy times
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
3,500+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
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billy_shines
103 posts
Feb 19, 2012
4:09 PM
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heres the mic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ueLbZE6x6I
sorry the light isnt so good. i used ash because it rang like metal when i dropped it. but now im thinking pine may have been better. its leaking air a bit because i built it to hold early 90s pro harps they have since changed the design and thats a special 20 inside. its a T shape the mic goes in a hole on the bottom the harp pops in a leather lined slot routed at the top. sorry about the sound but this is playing through a philco tube radio and a 4" speaker with a hole in it. what i mean by an angled rack is if you loosen the wing nuts on your rack it hangs like this |___| i wanna make a rack that hangs like this \___\ so you can play looking at your left playing hand and when your singing your looking at the audience and the harp and rack is to your left shoulder outta the way. a friend of mine had the same idea http://tedcrocker.com/hotdogmic2.jpg imagine that with two swing arms and a R45 shure element inside with no stick handle.
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waltertore
1994 posts
Feb 19, 2012
4:26 PM
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all you have to do is bend the rack that way. that would be a simple thing to do. Buy a cheap rack and try it. A channel lock or vise grip would let you put all kinds of bends on it. I would try it, but like I said I am so long with it the way I have been playing that changing would be like switching around the brake and gas pedals on a car..... I watched the video but really couldn't make out out much. I imagine the wood block is fairly heavy? I use the cheap bob dylan type rack that is why I keep experimenting with foams for deading and compression. My latest songs captured the amp tone I like. Experiment a success! I am off to make some more recordings. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
3,500+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Feb 19, 2012 4:29 PM
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waltertore
1996 posts
Feb 19, 2012
6:09 PM
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Here is my 3rd attempt with my new amplified harp rack setup. I moved the mic around some inside the tube and found the sweet spot. I spent most of my life playing to black audiences and crazed young white audiences. Both got way down- as far down as you would get they would go. The black women always danced liked magic. My wife danced like that one night in front of me and that was it- we are going on 32 years together. These songs took me back to those days. Where have these audiences gone?? Somebody hook me up if they are out there. I still got that beat in me. The one about men crying slipped in there somehow :-) Walter
bayou boogie
the beat that got the black women down
show me your charm
men aren't suppose to cry
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
3,500+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
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billy_shines
104 posts
Feb 20, 2012
7:14 AM
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no walter its not heavy and the one im working on paper for my 365 will be even lighter. i think the answer for the hands on sounds may be wooden plate covers. like the pureharp. everything sounds like tin since hearing that. esp. in a rack without the hands around. so the hands must dull the tin ring. im thinking the same block idea with just the comb and reed plates popping all the way in. yknow just the guts in a wood box with a built in mic. like wooden hands.
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waltertore
1998 posts
Feb 20, 2012
6:03 PM
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Billy: Most people have no idea how bright a harp sounds in a rack. You have the metal harp vibrating undamped, on a metal rack. I have spent decades playing with one and am just now getting a tone I am statified with using it. just holding a harp uncupped in your hands deadens the highs big time. Good luck with your new creation!
here are a couple from today
if we stopped the wars
the sad old lady
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
3,500+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
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glhundt
3 posts
Feb 21, 2012
12:04 PM
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Here's a medium-fidelity one-man-band recording I recently uploaded to SoundCloud.
http://soundcloud.com/gerry-hundt
This was either the beer cozy or the G-Rig for the harp, I don't recall. No overdubs.
I think feedback elimination is the result of knowing your gear and where to place it. My head serves as the primary feedback buffer for the harp, and I use a super-cardioid EV RE16 for vocals to minimize bleed (when I want to, that is).
Cool thread!
G.
Last Edited by on Feb 21, 2012 12:11 PM
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waltertore
1999 posts
Feb 21, 2012
4:45 AM
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glhundt: sounds like maxwell street in the day. Feedback elimination is simple. Play quiet :-) Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
3,500+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
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glhundt
4 posts
Feb 21, 2012
1:08 PM
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Granted, but if you're after overdriven sounds without the aid of stompboxes, even the smallest of amps will feed back with a hot harp mic in the same room. Is it loud? Depends on whom you ask and the room you're in. Most of my amped harp sounds over the years have been recorded with a SF Fender champ, a blistering 6 watts.
I'd say for amped harp players (and most vocalists, for that matter), feedback elimination is always an issue no matter the volume level; mic technique is just as important as playing at an appropriate volume. Amplifying racked harp compounds the issue as you lose the use of your hands.
G.
Last Edited by on Feb 21, 2012 1:12 PM
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waltertore
2000 posts
Feb 21, 2012
6:25 AM
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attenuators are the answer to getting fat overdriven harp/guitar sound and eliminating feedback. They allow you to play at any volume and retain the original tone. I can sound like hound dog taylor, van halen, etc, and still be at whisper volume. It is great technology is now available to allow this. Most musicians feel impotent unless they are shaking the walls. I learned being around willie nelson about quiet. His band plays at speaking volume onstage. I play at speaking volume on all my recordings and stage gigs. Being alone makes it easy but when I use a real band they fit my level. I have a bunch of players that can do this but in my younger days I often had battles over the volume issue. A quiet stage sound makes vocal feedback a non issue and often monitors are not needed to boot. Good quiet music will draw people in. I prefer a clean sound but my recent songs have been with distorted harp. Listen to bayou boogie. That harp was at the volume you whisper at in church when the preacher is speaking and you are talking to your neighbor. Walter
here is the attenuator I use
http://www.thdelectronics.com/product_page_hotplate.html
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
3,500+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Feb 21, 2012 7:36 AM
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waltertore
2001 posts
Feb 21, 2012
8:44 AM
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The amplified harp sound grew old today. I am back to the acoustic harp. I find it to be much more dynamic and expressive overall. tha amped harp is to 1 dimensional for me. Walter
easy money blues
candy red head apple girl
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
3,500+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Feb 21, 2012 9:01 AM
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billy_shines
105 posts
Feb 21, 2012
5:59 PM
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walter youre absolutely right. my first homemade rack was wrapped everywhere with black tape. and the slider bar was wood not metal. when i finally got a real rack i didnt like it. lets see fingers are bone muscle and skin. bone is a calcium carbonate a porous rock with tiny holes. a bone nut sounds way better than a plastic one on a guitar. maybe a beef shank bone instead of a metal slider and some kind of leather skirt around the top bar to dampen the plates. and get rid of those springs somehow. springs are just curly strings like spring reverb. the springs have to be contributing to that horrid ting sound. hmmm
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waltertore
2002 posts
Feb 22, 2012
3:17 AM
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Billy: Most people don't realize playing harp on a rack is like learning another instrument. Another factor is learning to get decent tone when using one. I keep searching for ways to capture it on recordings as it sounds live without compromising the vocal sound and visa versa due to eq'ng off the top end of the harp. That dulls the vocals and if I get the vocals just right the harp is too bright. I love this puzzle. I am bascially satified with the tone I get with my recordings and would put my acoustic harp tone up against anybodys recording the vocals and harp on the same mic live :-) the amplified harp tone gets boring to me after awhile the same goes for distorted guitar/vocals. At first it is like- wow this is powerful but then it becomes to much a one dimensional thing IMO. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
3,500+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Feb 22, 2012 3:24 AM
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glhundt
5 posts
Feb 29, 2012
2:48 PM
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Billy,
Check out this harp rack from K&M. The rubber dulls the overtones and pushes the harp out, making it more comfortable to play.
http://produkte.k-m.de/en/Stands-and-accessories-for-instruments/Wind-instruments/16416-HARMONICA-HOLDER-black
G
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billy_shines
132 posts
Mar 01, 2012
3:07 AM
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i bent a hanger like a dunlop harp handle. fits the neck tight left side comes to the collar bone right side lower. comes up and is angled almost exactly where i want it. i played a bit with it on. problem is getting it off my head. im gonna need to do some re-designing.
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