Frank
182 posts
Feb 13, 2012
4:43 AM
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hvyi you seem to worship "yourself"...This should steer you in the right direction - Go practice the train rhythm with your metronome on 30 and use only hole 1 for now. When you think you got that down -report back.
Last Edited by on Feb 13, 2012 4:50 AM
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hvyj
2132 posts
Feb 13, 2012
4:53 AM
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Frank, purely as a practical matter, if I spent my practice time screwing around with choo-choo train rhythms, I wouldn't be gigging with two bands since no bandleader i work with is interested in paying me (or anyone else)to play that shit. FWIW, I tend to spend my practice time working on stuff I can actually use in performances.
Right now I'm working on the head to "Still Got the Blues for You." You should try that. You don't need to go above hole 5 if you do it in 5th position.
But, yes, i do have confidence in my own judgment.
Last Edited by on Feb 13, 2012 4:55 AM
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Frank
183 posts
Feb 13, 2012
4:59 AM
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Did Joe send you to the back of the caboose when you took his class...Are you ashamed your just a beginner, if that's the problem, just stay on hole one until you can get a good train rhythm down, you can do it...
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hvyj
2133 posts
Feb 13, 2012
5:09 AM
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Actually, if I'm reading the chronology in his bio correctly, I think I've been playing a few years longer than Joe has. I'm not suggesting that makes me a better player.
Frank, I don't know how to say this politely, but it's guys like you who confuse choo-choo train rhythms with real music that give the harmonica a bad reputation among real musicians. But if that's your orientation, you've obviously come to the right instructor since whatever other capabilities he may have, Joe Filisko is the baddest train rhythm player on the planet. Keep on chuggin'!
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MrVerylongusername
2205 posts
Feb 13, 2012
5:12 AM
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Thinking way back to my piano lessons:
I wasn't thrown head-first into a world of Greek modes and advanced harmony. On my first lesson I only got shown 1 key - middle C... "I am C, Middle C, left hand, right hand, Middle C". I spent 3 lessons doing that, working on rhythm and coordination (I was 6)
The black keys didn't come into it for months. Chords didn't either. I can't remember when the left hand work started either (this is 35 years ago), but it was probably a long time after my first lesson.
That didn't diminish my understanding of the potential of the instrument.
That is all Joe Filisko is doing. His own tried and tested approach to learning the instrument that is in discrete stages, so as to develop core skills. For traditional, pre-war blues, that means a firm foundation in chordal work and breath control at the bottom end. You don't like train rhythms - we get it - but they are the cornerstone of what Joe does. People who go to Joe probably go because they like what he does: his style of playing. The same way Jazz players go to Levy and blues overblowers go to Adam.
As a former teacher of adults and children, I have been formally trained in the best ways to support learners. Everyone has different learning styles; some people will choose to go beyond that which is presented to them, but I personally do not think it is ever a good idea to overwhelm people with overly complex information before they are ready for it. I suspect Joe, with his extensive knowledge of teaching probably shares that view.
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Frank
184 posts
Feb 13, 2012
5:33 AM
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@hvyj If that's your resume playing in 2 bands - I'm not impressed, in fact - very boring...just being honest, no diss-respect!
Last Edited by on Feb 13, 2012 5:34 AM
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hvyj
2135 posts
Feb 13, 2012
5:37 AM
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Frank, I'm just a hobbyist with no formal musical training. I don't expect to impress anyone. I'm just delighted to be able to play my harmonica with other musicians on a regular basis. Nothing impressive about it at all. I just like doing it.
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Frank
185 posts
Feb 13, 2012
5:46 AM
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hvyj... thank God your expectations are what they are - I have a feeling you would be sorely disappointed otherwise...I mean that in a good way! You seem to have have a realization of your professional inadequacies.
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hvyj
2136 posts
Feb 13, 2012
5:50 AM
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Frank, Absolutely. The musicians I work with regularly are all full time professionals so I have a constant basis for comparison to remind me of my limitations. Fortunately, they like what i do and teach me a lot. I'm very fortunate.
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tmf714
992 posts
Feb 13, 2012
5:55 AM
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You need to become a lot more humble before you can EVER become fortunate -you need to gravel at the feet of some of your so-called "full time professionals"-
"Frank, I'm just a hobbyist with no formal musical training. I don't expect to impress anyone. I'm just delighted to be able to play my harmonica with other musicians on a regular basis. Nothing impressive about it at all. I just like doing it. "
Now we can all take your posts about Joe with a grain of salt-thank you.
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Frank
186 posts
Feb 13, 2012
5:57 AM
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I'm glad you see now how incompetent the things are you've said so far,and pointing out that your not qualified to give pro advice- I appreciate your honesty. Now maybe we can get back to Networking Joe's EXCELLENT Harmonica Teaching Site?
Last Edited by on Feb 13, 2012 5:59 AM
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Michael Rubin
430 posts
Feb 13, 2012
5:59 AM
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Hvyj says:
Frank, purely as a practical matter, if I spent my practice time screwing around with choo-choo train rhythms, I wouldn't be gigging with two bands since no bandleader i work with is interested in paying me (or anyone else)to play that shit. FWIW, I tend to spend my practice time working on stuff I can actually use in performances.
I actually am philosophically in line with a lot of Hvyj's ideas. Although my first lesson is a train, it is more about learning steady timing and tongue articulation. Personally, I dislike most train harmonica and other forms of rhythm harp. HOWEVER I studied the heck out of Madcat's rhythm DVD. At least an hour a day for a year with a metronome. And when I was first getting into the metronome, I did chord tongue articulation for another year, subdividing the beats with quarternotes, eighth notes, sixteenths, triplets and swung eighths.
Why? Because nearly every time I go into the studio, I get this question: Can you do some chugging on this? I can explain to them until I am blue to the face that I think chugging doesn't sound good, one of two Madcat rhythms always gets me paid.
Over and over I am asked by bandleaders to do a train thing in live situations.
Then, in my opinion, using chords and tongueing for metronome subdivisions really allow you to focus on the subdivisions! Then when you have good timing, they show up in your playing all over the place.
As for Joe, although we have had friendly disagreements about techniques and musical styles, that guy is a prince. He is very nice, well organized and can really play the harp in many styles, not just the old school stuff. I have seen him use a bullet in front of a band and do great stuff. I have never taken a class from him so I cannot speak to his teaching, but I have seen his tablature and I like his timing system.
But, when I look at the early parts of this thread, hvyj does not seem to be disrespecting Joe. He actually seems to be saying what he thinks about the style of music Joe performs most, and then saying that he can still tell Joe is great at what he does. Very diplomatic. Then it breaks down as people put hvyj down in an attempt to defend Joe and hvyj responds negatively.
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tmf714
993 posts
Feb 13, 2012
6:03 AM
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@rubin-really? hvyj's second post on the subject-
"The free stuff on Filisko's site seems to be wordy conceptualizations of otherwise simple stuff sprinkled with a few gems of true wisdom here and there and generally consists of the sort of regurgitated conventional wisdom about how to play harmonica that is inconsistent with approaching the harp as a musical instrument. But most published instructional materials suffer from similar deficiencies, IMHO."
If I said that to Joes face,he would say I was disrespecting him,for sure.
Last Edited by on Feb 13, 2012 6:17 AM
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Michael Rubin
431 posts
Feb 13, 2012
6:08 AM
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TM are you quoting Hvyj? I guess I missed that post.
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hvyj
2137 posts
Feb 13, 2012
6:16 AM
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@Frank: I don't consider myself incompetent. I am a harp player who doesn't sing and who doesn't double on any other instrument. It's pretty unusual for a harp player with that limited skill set to work regularly. So I kinda sorta feel that I must be doing something competently or i wouldn't be working regularly.
@Michael: Yeah, every now and the I've got to chug. If I were doing studio work like you are, I'd no doubt have to do more chugging on demand. And I agree that practicing train rhythms can be useful for building certain fundamental techniques. But the musicians I play with regularly don't play in that style and don't want me to play in that style. We are fairly compatible musically in that regard.
@tmf714: Actually, you do the hero worship thing so much better than I do, so I'll leave the grovelling to you. And yes, given Filisko's reputation I was disappointed that, with some exceptions, his written materials were so simplistic.
Last Edited by on Feb 13, 2012 6:21 AM
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Frank
187 posts
Feb 13, 2012
6:22 AM
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hvyj- Again, if your trying to impress - it falls mighty short, If that's all you can brag about, well- nuff said!
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hvyj
2138 posts
Feb 13, 2012
6:31 AM
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Frank, I'm not trying to impress and I'm not trying to brag. What I am doing is waiting to read a post from you that has some substantive musical content.
You came close with your reference to practicing on hole 1 with a metronome set on 30. Why don't you elaborate on that instead of trading insults? Okay, you think I'm an incompetent asshole. I get it. But, I'm here to learn. So far you haven't taught me anything substantive. Probably because you haven't posted anything substantive except your link to Filisko's site. So, given my level of perceived incompetence, there should be a lot I can learn from you. Enlighten me.
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tmf714
994 posts
Feb 13, 2012
6:38 AM
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"And yes, given Filisko's reputation I was disappointed that, with some exceptions, his written materials were so simplistic. "
Really? Obviously you have not seen Joe's tablature that he has written out-"Juke" comes to mind,specifically.
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Honkin On Bobo
927 posts
Feb 13, 2012
6:39 AM
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hvyj: "But, I'm here to learn."
Actually, from the first few posts on this thread, it sounded more like you were here to trash Joe Filisko.
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tmf714
995 posts
Feb 13, 2012
6:42 AM
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@hvyj-
"It's pretty unusual for a harp player with that limited skill set to work regularly. So I kinda sorta feel that I must be doing something competently or i wouldn't be working regularly."
I know plenty of COMPETENT players that play harmonica and do not sing-or play any other instruments.The difference between you and them is that they make it a full time profession-they earn a living from it.
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Frank
188 posts
Feb 13, 2012
6:49 AM
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The more I'm learning about you the more I realize you need some serious extra attention... Here is what I suggest, stay on hole 1 and only exhale on that hole, don't inhale yet, take your time, don't forget your metronome - you can't rush this. When you think you have it down,"the ability the do train rhythms on 1 hole blow" put up a you tube video of your progress and we'll work from there.
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hvyj
2139 posts
Feb 13, 2012
6:59 AM
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@tmf714: Learning to regurgitate "Juke" or listening to some other player do so ad nauseum is not very high on my list of personal musical priorities. I have no doubt that you, Joe and several thousand other harp players can do that much better than me.
@Honkin On Bobo: Well. I don't consider learning and negative critical analysis to be distinct concepts.
I've been on the receiving end of a number of posts telling me I'm wrong solely because of the hero status of the author whose materials I am criticising. I don't learn much from those. I've gotten 3 posts from Kingley, one with a positive critical analysis of the materials and two pointing out something significant I had overlooked all of which I considered to be useful dialog, and resulted in me acknowledging an error on my part. And I've received one post from tmf714 pointing out specific tabulature, and a thoughtful post from MrVlun about teaching methods both of which I consider to be informative dialog. The rest of the posts disagreeing with me are non-substative testaments to the exhalted reputation of the author which tells me nothing I didn't know before this thread started. So, yeah I'm here to learn--I'm just not learning much from this thread so far.
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hvyj
2140 posts
Feb 13, 2012
7:04 AM
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Frank, Is that the extent of what you are capable of sharing with us about harmonica technique? You know, I think you are precisely the sort of player Joe Filisko's materials are intended to help. His stuff appears very appropriate for a player at your level to study. I have no doubt you'll get a lot out of it. Let us know when you've worked all the way up to hole 5.
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tmf714
996 posts
Feb 13, 2012
7:10 AM
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@Frank-hvyj HAD a video on YouTube-for about a week-it was removed by the author-the examples I could find of his playing sustansiate his poor analysis and his own shortcomings-he has no grounds to judge Joe Filiskos teaching methods or playing abilities-his own shortcomings are his reasons for failure to grasp the basic fundamentals of harmonica playing-learn from the masters as a beginner-you have no where to go but forward.
John's shortcomings stem from trying to play with musicians of a higher caliber-if you listen to hvyj's music he posted some time ago on this forum,it's very easy to hear what is occuring-.
The bottom line-hvyj's authority carries very little weight. Take what he has to say about Joe Filisko with a grain of salt-or less if that is possible.
Last Edited by on Feb 13, 2012 7:12 AM
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Frank
189 posts
Feb 13, 2012
7:14 AM
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hvyj - more gibberish and self deluded assumptions about this thread...I realize that your ego has been crushed by Joe's excellent teaching methods and you have the tendency to over inflate your own skills, but the real question - why the chip on your shoulder. Your continually trying to puff yourself up and it just looks more pathetic each time.
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hvyj
2141 posts
Feb 13, 2012
7:26 AM
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@tmf714: I've never posted a vid on MBH. And I've never had a vid on YouTube. Actually, I don't know how to post vids. I may have considerable shortcomings as a player, but I think you may have me confused with somebody else.
You know, not long ago, I heard somebody criticizing Tom Brady's decision making in the Super Bowl. The criticism sort of made sense, but I guess i should have disregarded it because that person is not an all pro quarterback himself.
Frank, besides providing negative characterizations of me and your assessment of my ego and motivations, do you have anything substantive you can say about harmonica technique or music? I've never claimed to be a player of great skill or anything like that, but I think I am capable of discussing the specifics of harmonica technique and basic music theory without trading insults. I'm not getting anything substantive out of your posts
Last Edited by on Feb 13, 2012 8:30 AM
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HarpNinja
2150 posts
Feb 13, 2012
7:34 AM
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I've met Joe, own a large share of his recorded music, and have been to his site to check out his materials.
Whether it be while checking out Joe or anyone else in regards to harmonica instruction, I would make sure I did the following:
1. Wanted to play the style that said educator is best at
2. Had plenty of interest, background, and time spent listening to that sort of music
3. Could easily read, understand, and practice the materials provided
4. Felt the outcomes of the programming met my goals as a player
5. Felt the materials matched my learning style well
There is an abundance of hero worship on this site as well as lack of real evidence to substantiate opinions that are trying to be passed on as fact. I applaud those who take the time to present evidence, create their own experiments, or generally have an open mindset to all things harmonica.
In my journey into the harmonica (nearly 10yrs of playing now and no real serious efforts into maximizing my potential as a serious traditional blues harmonica player), the biggest stumbling blocks for me are trusting people I don't know and what they are telling me to do, and assuming that the best methodologies have already been found.
The best thing I ever did was to experiment for myself and do my own research by going out of my way to look beyond conventional wisdom.
In doing so, I've learned that the best I can ever do for someone is offer my experiences and let them know what I am personally after. I've also learned that there is no right way of doing anything and you need to go after your heart's desire while letting others do the same. I've also learned that for some people it has nothing to do with the harmonica and everything to do with Ego.
I still spend too much time fighting my Ego, which never really lets you be happy, but as a relative newb (about 10yrs of playing harmonica and having just turned 31), it surprises me the level of self-awareness I have compared to some others.
At the end of the day, everyone is either overrated or underrated. We can set them up for success or just as quickly set them up for failure. Bias and the politics of human interactions are a very fascinating thing!
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Mods
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
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Frank
190 posts
Feb 13, 2012
7:35 AM
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Yeah - post this link of Joe's Teaching site to all your friends and acquaintances.
LINK
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Honkin On Bobo
928 posts
Feb 13, 2012
7:37 AM
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@hvyj: Big difference between a thoughtful critique of somebody's teaching style and the condescension dripping from your posts toward Filisko.
We get it, you don't like harp players train chugging, so you call them "choo-choo" noises, in an attempt to denigrate anybody who teaches them or learns how to do them well. And no, I'm not a huge fan of them either, doesn't mean I'd go out of my way to try to ridicule someone who wanted to do or teach them. That's a real "substantive testament"
Anybody looking at Joe's site can see he teaches much more than just train chugging, oh wait, I forgot, "regurgitating Juke" is an unworthy endeavor for a beginning/intermediate player, because you know, it's not really high on YOUR list of personal musical priorities. Several thousand other harp players can do them better than you.
Of course, we don't quite know what you can do better than several thousand others, because despite playing in two bands with highly trained musicians that gig regularly (not that you're "bragging" or anything) nobody, at any time, seems to have pointed a video camera in your general direction, thereby making it impossible for most of the forum to know what that superior approach of yours has made you sound like.
Last Edited by on Feb 13, 2012 11:53 AM
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HarpNinja
2152 posts
Feb 13, 2012
7:55 AM
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The humor in all this is related to the Grammy's thread and the general snubbing of pop music.
Am I the only one who gets it?
There is a pop scene in relation to the blues niche and the same people who absolutely loathe pop music are the ones who love pop blues the most. Juke, Born in Chicago, Messin' with the Kid...all pop-blues. Heck, 90% of blues marketed materials are geared towards pop-blues. If it wasn't, no one would buy it!
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Mods
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
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hvyj
2142 posts
Feb 13, 2012
8:01 AM
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@Honkin on Bobo: I didn't join MBH to post show off/jack off videos. Nor do i feel the need to claim that I am a superior player. I'll leave that stuff to the rest of you. And I don't know that i do anything any better than several thousand other harp players. I'm content to be gigging several times a month and jamming whenever i want to during the week, and trying to improve my playing and learn some musicianship.
I post because it helps me organize what i think i know about harmonica playing. Most of what i think i know I learned before internet resources were available, and, frankly, i found it difficult to figure most of this stuff out because the instructional materials available didn't conceptualize things very well, and IMHO, a lot of them still don't. If you disagree, that's fine.
Judging from some of the reactions i get, I was kinda sorta under the impression that some of the stuff I've posted about has been found helpful to some MBH members and a lot of that stuff is not covered in any instructional materials I've seen. It's just stuff i figured out the hard way that I've decided to try to pass along FWIW. If you think I'm full of shit, that's your prerogative.
What i DON'T do is blindly accept as gospel everything that's published by respected authors just because of the author's reputation. If you think that's wrong, well that's your prerogative, too.
I'm also of the opinion that a lot of the folklore that is accepted as conventional wisdom about amplified harmonica playing is not all that valid. So a lot of my opinions may appear unconventional. I'm not into group-think. If you disagree, that's your prerogative, but I remain unimpressed with people who adhere to conventional wisdom just because it's conventional, and I am not uncommonly irreverent in expressing that view point. If that bothers you, BFD.
i also am of the opinion that blues is ONE STYLE of music, not a religion. But everyone has his or her own beliefs.
@Frank: Thanks for sharing the link
Last Edited by on Feb 13, 2012 8:21 AM
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Frank
191 posts
Feb 13, 2012
8:03 AM
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Grammy thread? - did notknow there was one, thanks for the heads up, hahahahahahaaa
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Frank
192 posts
Feb 13, 2012
8:14 AM
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hvyj - It seems now you want us to take pity on you...and have adopted the "poor me" attitude.
Judging from tons of the reactions - There are many thousands of players, including the best in the world who consider Joe's teaching to be Exceptional.
So you figured this stuff out the hard way - join the crowd, big friggin deal. The only thing you seem to be passin along in this thread is hot-air.
Your welcome for the link!
Last Edited by on Feb 13, 2012 8:22 AM
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hvyj
2143 posts
Feb 13, 2012
8:25 AM
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Frank, you don't need to feel sorry for me. For a limited player with a diseased ego, I'm actually pretty happy with my musical situation. Maybe i just don't know any better--you know, happy as a clam in warm mud.
Go back to studying Filisko's course materials. you'll probably learn something that you'll eventually be able to share with the rest of us.
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Frank
193 posts
Feb 13, 2012
8:31 AM
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If your suggesting your ignorance has put you in a bliss full state of mind - we may finally be getting somewhere... there's hope yet for you to learn how to play train rythms.
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tookatooka
2713 posts
Feb 13, 2012
8:36 AM
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"I was kinda sorta under the impression that some of the stuff I've posted about has been found helpful to some MBH members."
Yeah! hvyj has helped me enormously with my playing and I've copied a lot of out to my disk for future reference. Thanks hvyj.
I've also enjoyed Franks video playing too.
Hey! You're both talented in your own unique ways.
I hate it when threads degenerate like this. So much potential energy wasted and misdirected.
Pity we don't cut heads on this forum cause it's one that I think would be well worth watching.
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Frank
194 posts
Feb 13, 2012
8:40 AM
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Tooka - Your right, hvyj is certainly jealous of Joe's talents!
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KeithE
201 posts
Feb 13, 2012
10:23 AM
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hvyj: "Joe recommends that beginners venture no farther than hole 5. Yeah, I know...doesn't make any sense to me, either."
This is a trivial point, but here's a basic fact check. It you take a look at one of his most basic songs for sale on his site Blue Boogie he is using hole 6.
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Joe_L
1724 posts
Feb 13, 2012
10:52 AM
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@hvyj - From some of your writings, it's apparent that you don't play many chords. Are there any times when you use them in your playing? Do you mostly play as a member of a band? Do you have any solo pieces that you play? When you are talking to your musical mentors, do they use chords as part of their music?
It's been my experience that use of chords add texture, depth and a sense of feeling to music, especially Blues.
While I don't play train riffs in public, I've found that they help players get used to breathing through the instrument. I've also learned that many harp players who lead bands also use a modified train pattern to set up the beginning of shuffles.
Don't you find the lack of use of chords limiting? It must make it difficult to play in a solo or duo setting. It must make carrying rhythm more challenging when other members are soloing.
It seems like Filisko's method of teaching is rooted in traditional Blues styles. He teaches the same way a lot of traditional players learned in the past. It maybe limiting, but we are talking about a very limited instrument. If a person wants to play an instrument with less limitations, they should consider playing piano or guitar.
Do your band members play a lot of chords? Honestly, it would be interesting to hear your band.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
Last Edited by on Feb 13, 2012 10:57 AM
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mr_so&so
495 posts
Feb 13, 2012
10:59 AM
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I thank you, Frank, for making Joe's site known to me. I've had a chance to look it over and listen to some of the full-length sample tracks. There is a lot more there than train rhythms, and the price for the study songs is very reasonable. I will be purchasing some, I'm sure, as I have done previously from Adam, Ronnie Shellist, and Dave Barrett in the past. We should be grateful for the plethora of high quality learning materials available to us -- and support those who offer them. I know that I still have a lot to learn and these guys are helping me stay with it.
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Jim Rumbaugh
670 posts
Feb 13, 2012
11:05 AM
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What I have learned from Joe & HVYJ
=========
From JOE (the world traveling, full time proffesional)
I have learned about "live performance", how to lead a jam, how to work with others, and how to communicate. I will share some of those lessons in one of my classes in March at our club's Harmonicollege.
============
From HVYJ (the prolific amatuer)
I have learned more about 3rd, 4th, 5th and 12th positions. major pentatonic scales, and the relationships between the major and minor scales and their positons. I will share some of those lessons in three or more of my classes in March at our club's Harmonicollege.
===========
I value what I have learned from each of them. They both have valuable lessons. They both have differnt emphasis. They both have differents styles
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HarmoniCollege March 24, 2012
theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
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Frank
195 posts
Feb 13, 2012
11:47 AM
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Jim, you mean you won't be teaching train rhythms, shame on you, lol....
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hvyj
2144 posts
Feb 13, 2012
12:43 PM
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@JoeL: At the risk of being assailed as an arrogant egotist, I will attempt to answer your question. First of all, I have a little different perspective on playing than some. I like to say that i don't play my harmonica like it's a harmonica. By that I mean that I don't mimic a lot of harmonica specific techniques as my primary approach--I tend to get musical ideas more from other instruments. I've been playing for quite a few years, so I like to think my breath technique is pretty well developed. Generally speaking,, I don't use my tongue to articulate separation between notes (except for complexly phrased passages, I start and stop my diaphragm to do that which I think produces a more even attack) and I bend with my throat which produces a more even tone and can be accomplished with greater speed if I am playing at fast tempo.
I do not use chords much. I will more often use split interval double stops instead. These produce difference tones that really fatten the sound and provide the depth of feeling you are talking about--in fact more intensely than chords do because of the difference tones. Of course, I do play chords occasionally and if I am playing a tune like, say "High Heeled Sneakers" I'll play chords a lot. But I rarely work off chords as my main thing if I have a choice. Part of this is because i play a lot in multiple positions and in 4th and 5th positions you don't have chords to work with. but even in 2nd position I don't chord very much.
ALL of my playing is with other musicians, either in a band or as a duo. I NEVER play solo unless the other musician in a duo gig has a technical problem and i have to fill while he fixes it, which does happen every now and then. But I still don't use many chords when i do that.
Even playing in a duo I don't need chords to carry rhythm. If i need to carry a rhythm that can be very easily done with repeated riffs comprised of single notes played on tempo with speed and accuracy. I will frequently (but not always) play these in triplet patterns which the throat bending allows me to do at fast tempo when necessary. You need to have good time to do this, but I've always sad a decent sense of time and groove. Of course note SELECTION is also very important, and I've had to work harder at that. You have to know what notes to play over the changes. Sometimes just a very simple 2 note patterns works fine. Sometimes the riff can be more complicated.
Of course the guitar players i work with play chords.and my note selection is in reference to their underlying chords if I don't screw up. The musicians i work with know what they are doing so I don't need to set the groove for them. I'll occasionally count something off at a jam, but since I'm not a singer, I'm not usually the one who winds up doing that.
if you understand chord changes you can just play single notes over the changes with the same rhythmic intensity as you would chords in order to carry a rhythm . You need good single note technique to do this and sometimes you have to be able to play fast with good time and meter while keeping clean separation between the notes. Regardless of spreed, I think it playing these sort of repeating riffs with variations sounds more interesting than chords and i certainly gives you more variety in note selection. IMHO, it's a more sophisticated sound and you are not limited by the few chords you have available on the instrument. So you are not as limited by the limited nature of the harmonica and you avoid cliches more easily, which is another reason I say that i don't play my harmonica like it's a harmonica.
I don't ALWAYS play repeated rhythmic riffs but those and split intervals are what I use more often than chords. It gives me a different sound from the usual and it allows me to fit harp effectively to a wider variety of material.
Also, you don't have to be playing all the time--you can lay out when another instrument is soloing. Or you can just play a fill here and there.
There's nothing more commonly done on harp than vamping on chords. I often get the idea that's what a player plays when he doesn't know what notes to play. It's not a sound i like and I think it often sounds cliched and tends to emphasize the limitations of the instrument. This is because by playing those chords you have on the harp, it really limits what the musicians around you can be playing and still sound good in relation to what you are playing. You can play a lot more interesting stuff if you don't impose that sort of limitation on the band. Players who i like a lot include Butterfield, Mark Ford, Sugar Blue and Howlin Wolf.
So, I hope I've answered your question.
Last Edited by on Feb 13, 2012 1:00 PM
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Frank
196 posts
Feb 13, 2012
1:07 PM
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hvyj...You talk the talk, that's all well and good - but in the era of technology as it is... will you please walk the walk and put up video of where your comin from exactly cause the words are fallin short. Please make me a believer, we are all dyin to hear you do your magic. Come brother, lay it on us - PLEASE!!!
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HarpNinja
2155 posts
Feb 13, 2012
1:18 PM
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I don't get why hvyj has to post clips to appease you (and he won't, even if he is the world's best harmonica player your tone on this thread leads me to believe you've made up your mind regardless).
Why is it not ok for him to have a different approach to harmonica - whether he's good at it or not - but ok for you to tell others what is right or wrong?
I am not asking that to lecture you or make you defensive, I guess I just don't see why some can have opinions and others cannot.
The irony of this thread is that most people who share here are not the top players in the world, or the top players in their niche. I am all for establishing a level of trust before believing what one types, but trying to bully someone by continually poking at them in this matter seems counterproductive.
It was obvious tmf714 strongly opposed hvyj's opinion, and he was at least willing to try and provide some food for thought/evidence. I am just surprised that hvyj has asked for you to post some clips of you playing illustrating how great Joe's approach is.
For the record, I think people are trying to infer a lot hear and twist some words, and I don't totally agree with tmf714's opinions, but I can at least respect some of the methodology.
***I also want to restate that people tend to be very overrated and underrated in what they do. Personal relationships, politics, economic gain, and motivation all cloud our minds when making opinions or taking sides.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Mods
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
Last Edited by on Feb 13, 2012 1:23 PM
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Joe_L
1725 posts
Feb 13, 2012
1:32 PM
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@hvyj - Thanks for answering. I had no intention of jumping on you. I was genuinely interested in your philosophy. We all have different approaches to the instrument, what and how we play.
I was also genuinely interested in how you put that philosophy into practice in a musical setting. As a person who learned by listening and deciphering what I was hearing on old records and from other players, it's far easier for me to grasp what I hear along with the explanation. It helps me understand it better.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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Frank
198 posts
Feb 13, 2012
1:33 PM
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Mike, cause it's an extremely easy and effective way to communicate ones message.
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toddlgreene
3512 posts
Feb 13, 2012
1:51 PM
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Wow...a lambasting thread. I would have expected such a thing during the full moon a week ago, but not during the waning gibbous.
I must commend everyone on thusfar staying civil for the most part.
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Todd L. Greene
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Frank
200 posts
Feb 13, 2012
2:02 PM
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Todd, your late to the party, choo,choo to ya buddy,hahahahahahahaha
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12gagedan
161 posts
Feb 13, 2012
2:20 PM
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Repeatedly referring to pre-war harp stylings as "choo-choo" rhythms is like when you tell someone you play harmonica and they say, "what else do you play?"
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12gagedan's YouTube Channel
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