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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Blues modes?
Blues modes?
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greeno
13 posts
Feb 02, 2012
2:49 AM
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I have a question that's been bugging me.
I understand that modes are the notes of a scale starting and ending on a note other than the root.
How does this work with something like the blues scale? Is it possible to improvise in a scale that starts, for example, on 1 bent, contains the notes of the blues scale and end on 4 bent, thus playing in Db (on a C harp)?
If so, has anyone done this? What chord/s would you play underneath.
I suspect I'm confused about this, but can't quite see where my confusion lies.
Greeno
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GamblersHand
322 posts
Feb 02, 2012
4:20 AM
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I'm well out of my comfort zone here, but my limited understanding of modes is different. I think that a mode is a type of scale - i.e. the specific intervals in tones and half-tones between the notes.
"modal playing" is, I think, to play music less as a chord progression against a given key (e.g. the bass playing a run to bridge the chord change) and more about playing the specific scale implied by the chord.
The traditional example of model playing is So What by Miles Davis. It's quite riff-based without the bridging that you'd get with say a walking bass. And it also modulates to a different key.
Blues tends not to be played modally, being based on the blues scale of the I chord which can pretty much be played against all three chords. That's why it sounds appropriate for example, to play a bent 4 draw against the IV chord - even though it clashes with the scale of the IV chord, being a flat second against that scale.
I think (perhaps incorrectly) that more sophisticated blues like jump blues becomes "a little more modal" that is you accentuate the notes of the specific chord scale more.
hvyj is very good on this stuff hopefully he'll chime in. Or perhaps I've totally misunderstood your original question.
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hvyj
2084 posts
Feb 02, 2012
5:53 AM
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Db on a C harp is Eighth position which is not usually considered practical.
On a diatonic harp, the intervals between notes are not uniform like on a piano or on a chromatic harp, so the note pattern generated by the layout of a Richter tuned diatonic makes your suggestion impractical. It would work on a piano or on a chromatic harp, though. But on a diatonic harp, doing what you are suggesting would not generate a mode.
Of course, I don't OB, so maybe those that do might disagree.
Btw, i happen to think that certain modes are very useful for playing blues. However, the blues scale itself is not a mode.
A Richter tuned diatonic harmonica is, by definition, a diatonic instrument. Modes are diatonic scales.
Play a C harp in C = Ionian mode. C harp in D minor = Dorian mode. C harp in E minor = Phrygian mode. C harp in F = Lydian mode. C harp in G = Mixolydian mode. C harp in A minor = Aeolean mode. C harp in B = Lochrian mode.
Now, if you are playing a C harp in one of these keys you may or may not be playing in the corresponding mode, depending on your note selection. But you CAN play in each of these modes on one harp.
Each mode also corresponds to a position. Ionian = first position. Dorian = third position. Phrygian = fifth position. Lydian = twelfth position. Mixolydian = second position. Aeolean = fourth position (natural minor). Lochrian = Sixth position.
Now, if you are playing in a particular position that does not necessarily mean you are playing the corresponding mode. It depends on not selection, BUT in each position you CAN play the corresponding mode somewhere on the harp WITHOUT HAVING TO BEND.
The strategy for selecting a position to play in is to choose a harp that gives you a mode that furnishes most of the notes you need to play a particualr tune and hopefully the available bends will provide the rest of the notes needed.
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2012 6:12 AM
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Arbite
148 posts
Feb 02, 2012
6:04 AM
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The Regular Blues Scale Also known as the Minor Blues Scale in Jazz, Common Modes of this Scale is the Major Blues and Minor Blues, Probably the only 2 Modes i Use of the blues scale,
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http://www.youtube.com/arbite83
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hvyj
2085 posts
Feb 02, 2012
6:19 AM
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Minor blues scale: 1 3b 4 5b 5 7b
Major blues scale: 1 2 3b 3 5 6
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2012 6:26 AM
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arzajac
737 posts
Feb 02, 2012
6:22 AM
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"I understand that modes are the notes of a scale starting and ending on a note other than the root. "
My understanding of modes is that they preceded scales/keys. So instead of playing in a minor key, you would play in a mode that happened to be what we now call a minor key. It would work out to be the same.
Those modes were based on the major scale. I don'T know about modes based on other scales. But I do know that music theory works backwards.
Someone plays something that has never been played before and sounds good. A music theorist will then analyse it and tell the musician who has been playing this for years exactly what they have been doing all this time.
So can you base modes on the blues scale? I don't know. But it probably wouldn't be the most efficient way to create music.
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hvyj
2086 posts
Feb 02, 2012
6:30 AM
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The minor blues scale is just the major blues scale starting on 3b. So, in that sense, it is a mode, but not a mode that has a Greek name.
Mixolydian and Dorian modes are useful for playing blues. Aeolean mode is useful for minor blues.
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2012 6:33 AM
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GamblersHand
323 posts
Feb 02, 2012
6:43 AM
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Isn't the minor blues scale the major blues scale starting on the 6th?
e.g. in G
Minor
G Bb C Db D F
Major
G A Bb B D E
Starting on the 6th of the Major Blues Scale
E G A Bb B D
which is the minor blues scale in E
Edit - now I get it, it's the other way round. Duh
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2012 6:44 AM
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harpdude61
1235 posts
Feb 02, 2012
8:48 AM
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The blues scale I know is root, flat 3rd, fourth, flat fifth, fith, and flat seventh.
Everyone asociates the modes with the scale. Why couldn't this be called the blues mode?
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hvyj
2087 posts
Feb 02, 2012
9:07 AM
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No. Modes are interval patterns generated by what degree of the scale you start on. The intervals of a blues scale don't share that pattern.
Now, the minor blues scale and the major blues scale DO have a common interval pattern, but it is not the same pattern as the diatonic modes.
The minor blues scale is what we commonly refer to as THE blues scale.
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2012 9:09 AM
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WinslowYerxa
165 posts
Feb 02, 2012
9:24 AM
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The blues scale has two commonly used modes, and you can overlay one on the other.
The minor version (in A): A C D Eb E G
That's the tonic, minor 3rd, 4th, #4th (or flat 5th), 5th, and minor 7th.
But let's say we start the same sequence of notes on C instead:
C D Eb E G A
Now we have the tonic, 2nd, minor 3rd, major 3rd, 5th and 6th.
Now, let's say I combine two versions of the scale:
-- The second mode of the A blues scale (as just given above)
-- The first mode of the C blues scale:
C Eb F F# G Bb
I get a combined scale of C D Eb E F F# G A Bb.
I can filter it down to just the hard-edged, dark, sounding minor blues scale, the bright sunny major mode, or any combination.
You can always explore the other modes of the blues scale, and that's a good thing to do with any new scale you learn, just to check out all its possibilities. You may find some more attractive than others.
Theory notes on modes:
The modern concept of modes is that you start with a scale that is identified by a pattern of intervals, such as the major scale, diminished, melodic minor, etc.
Then you identify the place in the scale that is normally considered the tonic note (such as C for a C major scale). That's the first mode.
If you take the next note up the scale as the tonic note, then that's the second mode.
And so on.
When you do this with the major scale, each mode has a Greek name.
The Greek names were given by Medieval musicians, who thought they were playing the ancient Greek modes.
But the medieval guys were wrong about the Greek modes, and our modern understanding of modes is "wrong" in that we think very differently about modes from the way the medieval musicians did. Our conception came out of theirs, but only as a point of departure. We left behind a lot of what they considered essential and added stuff they never would have tolerated.
The idea of "modal playing" being a sort of vamp on one or two chords that supply background for noodling using a particular modal scale does come out of the Miles David Kind of Blue era, but that's only the simplest way to approach modes and isn't a limit to the use of modes, only the easiest and most obvious.
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2012 9:28 AM
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timeistight
309 posts
Feb 02, 2012
9:44 AM
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Why don't we just work them out:
A blues scale: A, C, D, Eb, E, G (1, minor3, 4, diminished5, 5, minor7)
Play the same notes from C gives us:
C major blues scale: C, D, Eb, E, G, A (1, major2, minor3, major3, 5, major6). That's a useful scale in C major, particularly over the I chord.
What about from D?
D, Eb, E, G, A, C (1, minor2, major2, 4, 5, minor7). Two seconds but no third or fourth. Does feel like it wants to be in "D" to me.
Eb, E, G, A, C, D (1, minor2, major3, augmented4, major6, major7). I miss the fifth in that one.
E, G, A, C, D, Eb (1, minor3, 4, minor6, minor7, major7). That'd work in E minor, but we're still missing the fifth. It's a subset of the E minor bebop scale (E, F#, G, A, B, C, D, D#[aka Eb]) which probably works better.
G, A, C, D, Eb, E (1, major2, 4, 5, minor6, major6 [or maybe call it a diminished 7?]). I miss the third in that one.
To me, only the A and C scales work, but I'm not that adventurous. Maybe you'll find something you like.
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harpdude61
1236 posts
Feb 02, 2012
12:32 PM
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time...the half steps..D,Eb,E only sound correct to me in the blues scale. Your post made me realize why the blues scale is not technically a mode of any scale..soooooo
The blues scale stands alone in its awesomeness!
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STME58
73 posts
Feb 02, 2012
11:37 PM
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Winslow,
Thanks for your explanation. I don't know why, but I had not put together that the blues scale had modes just like the white keys on the keyboard (which is what I use to experiment with modes) do until I read your post. I took music theory 30 years ago put it has not been until I started playing harmonica that I am really putting it together and understanding it. I will get to a keyboard, mark off a set of blues scale notes, and start experimenting with the modes of the blues scale.
I will add this in case it helps clear up confusion. Some in this thread are making the common mistake of using the word root when they mean tonic. Chords have roots and they can be any note of the scale. Scales do not have roots.
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