bonedog569
445 posts
Jan 30, 2012
3:47 PM
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A brief clip form Sat. night's gig with the Lean Mean Blues Band + 1 - I'm the "+1"
What I think I do about as well as anyone, when I'm 'on' - is work with the rythm and play around the beat in a kind of rythmic conversation with the rest of the band. Among a number of things I'm weak on, is precision. Here I don't quite nail the tag line to Messin. - close, but no cigar. I hit it right-on most times - but not every time, and not this time. - your .02 welcome, I'm ducking under my chair now.
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bluemoose
662 posts
Jan 30, 2012
4:28 PM
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Wrong breath pattern on the third note.
Should be 6+ 5 4, not 6+ 5 5+
Practice it until you do it in your sleep.
Interesting, on some recordings Jr Wells doesn't play any harp on this or just a solo without ever playing this line. Leaves that for the guitar at the end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Dy9SRoCNM4
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LittleBubba
155 posts
Jan 30, 2012
4:43 PM
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I'm with bluemoose on this one. Especially better not to play the tagline if you're gonna butcher it (absolutely no offense intended). AND, i've played that tune both ways-- doin' the "tagline", and not doin' it. Instead just jumpin' in on the solo, and imo (one half cent worth), it has more punch when you let the band do the "tagline" and punch in with the solo. I've jumped in with the "and a 4 and a solo" (what're those, eighth notes or sixteenths? )to punctuate the lead-in, and it works pretty good, I think.
It could be one of those tunes where the groove comes across better with more space created by the harp not bein' there until the solo.
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2012 4:46 PM
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clyde
234 posts
Jan 30, 2012
4:58 PM
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you know tenor sax guys do that all the time in a counter melody thing. i don't see what the big deal is. do you guys want to copy everything note for note?
and what's up with this "practice it until you do it in your sleep" .... and "if you're gonna butcher it" ....
i have heard this guy play quite a bit on the web and i don't think he needs this.....
is this an inside joke maybe?
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2012 4:59 PM
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LittleBubba
157 posts
Jan 30, 2012
5:03 PM
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@clyde: not at all a joke. He asked for 2 cents, and he got a half. Any wanker would know that he butchered the riff; I've butchered riffs plenty of times, and it ain't good. The rest of his stuff may be good, but that riff wasn't, and the other comment was a response to a valid point about how to play the tune. It's not personal; it's about the music.
It's a signature riff, and most people agree that if you mess with a signature riff, you better do it right or come up with something that works as good without fightin' the tune.
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2012 5:06 PM
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bonedog569
447 posts
Jan 30, 2012
5:21 PM
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Thanks for the back up Clyde, - but as LB said- I asked for it - and on this site if you ask for peoples opinions - you'll get just that. No offense taken from LB & bluemoose. My approach to playing is pretty loose. I never think about what holes I'm playing unless it's something new and different for me - Autunm Leaves for instance, which I play in 3'd doubling my guitar player.
I can live with a certain amount of 'looseness' - beacuse I know who I am and what kind of player I am. That doesn't mean I don't want to improve though. In this case the lick is not really difficult. The notes I blew are in the scale (it is a diatonic harmonica after all) and likely very few people in the bar thought twice about it - but I knew, - and I would rather do it right. - So - a bit of practice on this wouldn't hurt. I don't usually think I need it on basic 2nd position blues, - but it turns out I do.
Now would someone please stroke my ego about the other stuff? - or dont ---Waaaaaa!
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Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2012 5:25 PM
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clyde
235 posts
Jan 30, 2012
5:23 PM
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fair enough about asking for two cents...but.... you state that as fact and i don't think so. i think if he changed the note just to give it a try like that it is not butchering...just experimenting. i don't know bonedog from adam but why would he or anyone else want to push the envelope if they get crap about it? i listened several times and i don't think it fights the tune.
by the way...i butcher plenty on the harp also.
i just don't think anything in music is sacred...unless you want to sound like the 45.
(i was typing this while you were responding)
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2012 5:24 PM
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bonedog569
448 posts
Jan 30, 2012
5:53 PM
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Where I thing there might be an 'option' on the lick is on the fourth note.
You could bend the 4 draw a 'blue note' down - or play a clean 4 blow.
Thoughts ? Cleaner might be better - more horn-line like. My 'tendency' is to bend it though.
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LittleBubba
158 posts
Jan 30, 2012
5:54 PM
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@clyde: mebbe I am a little too purist, but I'll stick to my statement about signature riffs. The rest of his work was pretty good, like he himself observed. thanks for the civil discourse.
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Tuckster
945 posts
Jan 30, 2012
6:01 PM
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Sorry Clyde but I disagree. If I watch a harp player do this song,I want him to hit that tagline spot on with the band. Either that or don't do it at all. To me,it sounds like you're saying a lack of discipline is OK. That's not the same as improvising or counterpointing.
Bonedog- this is not a dis on you. I played pretty much like you did the first time I tried it.
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2012 6:07 PM
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7LimitJI
588 posts
Jan 30, 2012
6:30 PM
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This is going to happen when you "sit in" with a band.
No one is going to expect perfection from you.Except yourself!!
Your solo was fine, made to sound all the better by the messed up hook line ;o)
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Youtube
"Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out".
"It's music,not just complicated noise".
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clyde
236 posts
Jan 30, 2012
6:30 PM
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little bubba....fair enough
tuckster.....fair enough on your first thought, but i'm not saying lack of discipline is o.k. .... i don't think that's what bonedogs performance was all about . he played it pretty much the same through the whole cut.
i think (guess i could be wrong) he knows the lick, he just decided to do it another way. that's o.k. with me.
i hope we all will continue the civil discourse.
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hvyj
2078 posts
Jan 30, 2012
7:08 PM
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As a general rule, I never play anything "just like the record" nor do the musicians i work with regularly. However, when a tune has a recognizable head, hook or melody, I think it's important to play it note-for-note or you're not playing the tune. That's where disciplined technique becomes important, IMHO.
Some things a player can take liberties with, but certain things are so well defined, that a player must play them accurately in order to play the tune right. I agree with Tuckster--if a player doesn't know or can't play the tag correctly, it's better (and more professional) not to play it at all.
Loved the solo, though.
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2012 7:18 PM
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Tuckster
946 posts
Jan 30, 2012
7:51 PM
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Clyde-hvyj said it much better than I could. That's what I meant. You have to have some disciplined playing with a band. No ill will meant.
Bonedog-yes I loved the solo,too.
Edit: I've resigned myself to hitting random letters the first time around for the Captcha. Anybody having this problem(again).
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2012 7:55 PM
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LittleBubba
159 posts
Jan 30, 2012
7:55 PM
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y'know Bonedog (and I'm starting to approach this in a more cooperative manner), the issue about the riff might center partly on the "sittin' in" context. Depending on how well you know the band, that could effect what you can get away with...and it could also depend on their expectations. IMO, the riff wasn't played quite right, even taken as an improvised riff..BUT, if the rest of your playing all night was pretty good, you prob'ly get a pass. But, if you wanna play with them again, you might've been better off not playin' the riff, or coppin' it straight, like me & Tuckster,hvyj, opined.
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2012 7:58 PM
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Joe_L
1703 posts
Jan 30, 2012
8:12 PM
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"Now would someone please stroke my ego about the other stuff?"
Try this one on for size. You got to play with two bad ass players, who also happen to be two of the nicest guys around. Norm and Tom are two great guys. I don't think I know the guitarist.
This is not one of my favorite tunes to play. When I play it, I tend to do what Junior did later in his life. I omit the tag and let the band play it. Unless, I've played it a bunch recently, I screw it up and its obvious when its screwed up. I try it once. If I mess it up, I omit it.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2012 8:15 PM
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clyde
237 posts
Jan 30, 2012
8:13 PM
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hvyi,
you are probably right. i felt sinse the rest of the band was playing the line in the traditional manner that the harp riff was just part of the layer. if the bass had played the line that way instead of the harp,would we be saying the same thing. if we had a sax chorus and one or more of the horn men played off the line what then? so anyway that's kind of where i'm coming from.
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asilve3
122 posts
Jan 30, 2012
8:15 PM
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Hey bonedog! I like the way you play a lot. Very cool style and feel when you are soloing and comping.
Most of these guys probably can't play that lick either. In fact most harmonica players cannot actually play the messin' with the kid riff. It is very difficult to to the bends necessary on the high F. Maybe try a low F if you are struggling.
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KingoBad
1027 posts
Jan 30, 2012
8:41 PM
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Asilve3, I think you are projecting a little too much. It is not a hard lick, it just takes a little practice. And at least half of these guys I KNOW can play it. No need to drop the shit on everyone else.
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Danny
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bonedog569
449 posts
Jan 30, 2012
9:35 PM
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I'm enjoying this - now that my fragile ego has been restored. - I am glad some of you enjoyed the solo.
This is the third or fourth time I've sat in with them - and they prefer to keep me onstage all night when I do show up - I'd actually prefer to hear less of me. This time they cut me in on a full share of the nights take - So it's becoming more than a one number sit in deal.
In my defense - or as poor excuse , - This is the most I've played out in many years. It's been a long time since I did the bar scene with a regular band a few nights a week. None the less- 'Messin' is a blues bar standard and I should have it down, -excuses shmuses. As many years as I've been playing, it should be a no brainer, -- but when it comes to having to be precise with a lick that defines the song , - I am not as on top of the instrument as I think I am - or should be. I will have to practice it if I want to play it. Not the worst thing.
On the positve side, I did want to reinforce the rhythmic aspect of playing to guys who think it's all about playing a lot of notes. - or trying to sound like you know who.
"leaving holes so that the music can fall out" as7LImit says, - but more than that, it's realizing that every instrument is in a way percussive. Playing that helps drive or accentuate a good rhythm can punch the whole energy level up, without turning up. This is what excites me about playing with a great drummer like Norm - and a band that leaves / makes some rhythmic space. It becomes like dancing with the music for me, - not just playing on top of it.
This venue is a lounge, not a bar, and the drummer uses brushes or those bound chopstick things, not sticks. That poses limitations and a challenge in itself, and makes finding and keeping a good groove all the more important.
@Joe_L - Norm DeCarlo and Tom are both really good, - and sweet guys. Norm is one of the best drummers I've had the pleasure of playing with. Doug Stiegerwald is the guitar player. Really good too. He's is limited here by having to play an acoustic with a pickup all night, - and hold down an awful lot of the music for three long sets. - You're local I'm assuming? - Are you playing out around here? When did you play with these guys? I am just starting to get out and around again - as I mentioned. Your advice about laying out on the riff if you butch it the first time is good. Mr. overconfidence here was sure I'd straighten it out - and doubled down. Ah well. Practice it will be.
http://www.leanmeanbluesband.com/lmbb_bio.html
https://www.facebook.com/fizzwhistle
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Joe_L
1704 posts
Jan 30, 2012
9:48 PM
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@bonedog - I live in the East Bay. I get out a bit here and there. I don't play out too much.
I've jammed with Norm and Tom several times in different places. I probably met both of thsoe guys at the Mojo Lounge in Fremont when RJ Mischo used to host the jam there about 7 or 8 years ago. I used to shoot a lot of photos there until I was coaxed into playing again.
If you're a regular, I'll come to one of those shows. I've haven't seen Norm or Tom in a couple of months.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2012 9:51 PM
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hvyj
2079 posts
Jan 30, 2012
10:23 PM
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Hey, don't feel bad. I know the lick, but I've flubbed it occasionally. Never at a paying gig, though.
When possible, I'll take some time a few hours before a paying gig and run through the heads and melodies that have to be played precisely--Messin' with the Kid, Teeny Weeny Bit, Miss You, Low Rider, the organ solo from Good Lovin', the horn lines from I Feel Good--stuff like that which are recognizable well defined passages that MUST be played accurately note for note.
I'm not necessarily the best at copping licks by ear, so sometimes I've had the guitar player write the specific notes out for me so i can learn to play the passages properly. Then I'll practice them again and again until I can play them in my sleep. The more of this sort of thing I do, the easier it gets to learn new material. And it really does help strengthen technique.
I don't want to sound judgmental, but IMHO the ability to play a defined part accurately without fudging or approximating is an essential skill for a performing musician. Otherwise, the player is just screwing around. There are a lot of harp players with decent technique who can sound pretty good improvising while playing solos or fills. But carrying a defined melody, hook or head correctly means hitting the right notes with consistent accuracy which requires discipline in addition to well developed technique. In some circles, it's what separates the men from the boys.
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2012 10:32 PM
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GamblersHand
318 posts
Jan 31, 2012
1:38 AM
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@Bonedog - The solo was great, really liked your phrasing.
The comping doesn't come out quite as clearly, but that's probably the recording.
One trick I like to use on this song is to copy the horn riffs and turnaround to Otis Redding's "Tramp". The turnaround is perhaps too much for accompaniment playing but it works well as a break between the two verses of the harp solo.
Works well on any funk/boogaloo styled blues.
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clyde
238 posts
Jan 31, 2012
5:48 AM
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shows what i know. i really thought he meant to play it that way.
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LittleBubba
162 posts
Jan 31, 2012
7:03 AM
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.. and I'm not sayin' that I play all harp parts the way they were done in the most popular recording of the tune:when it's not a signature riff, I may take some liberties, especially if I think I can either do better than the original (there ARE those instances) on a comp or lead. And, many of us will opt to double parts-- as has been mentioned-- and forego what would normally be a harp break in the interest of lettin' a guitar or horn take it while we comp.
It's just that if you're gonna go out on a limb, you better make sure it'll hold your weight.
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bonedog569
452 posts
Jan 31, 2012
9:44 PM
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"if you're gonna go out on a limb, you better make sure it'll hold your weight." - I like that.
I tend to play more like flying trapeeze without a net. - but I wouldnt mind getting a tad more 'professional' about it. - hence this whole topic.
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LittleBubba
167 posts
Feb 01, 2012
7:08 AM
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@bonedog: I think there's a number of benefits to copping licks pretty much note for note, other than the ones already discussed here,i.e. the benefit of discipline and the need for including signature riffs:
A) it can lead to better listening skills when learning tunes
B) it keeps you from falling back on the same old soloing patterns (some of which aren't bad, 'cuz they become your style or signature)
C) and, as WAS mentioned earlier, and I think one of the more valuable benefits, it forces you to learn and incorporate techniques that you may not have been comfortable with.
D) it actually makes your interpretation of the phrase more relevant when you get freed up enough to improvise a little on it.
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2012 7:09 AM
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