This, a hundred times this. As a member of a band that's just starting out, we've been getting the short-end of this stick from the get go. Lots of "we'll give you a cut of the door if you bring the crowd" gigs. Now, we're not phenomenal yet, but we're getting there. It took a long chat with a very cool and very sloshed bar owner for me to realize just how underpaid we were getting. Musicians these days also need to be economists and lawyers, I suppose. ---------- "I'm a stray dog runnin' through this town..." The Stonecutters
"Was it always this way, musicians being treated like second class citizens?"
Well I'm guessing yes! Read James Gallway's autobiography - he was treated the same way when he was principal flute in the Berlin Phil!
Are you any standard up to and including conservatory performer's diploma? Well there are ten million people on the planet like you, and welcome to the world of cattle-trading!
OK, I may be in a cynical mood today. ---------- Andrew. ----------------------------------------- https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000874537399
Last Edited by on Jan 22, 2012 4:26 AM
Terrific article. What it says is mostly true. Still, there's another side to the story.
The surest way for a band to get paid is to play to full rooms, not empty rooms. The empty-room business model is unsustainable. But if a band's playing in a given room coincides with a full room, and if this happens almost every time, the band should be able to, and usually can, dictate--or at least significantly inflect--the terms of the agreement.
The reverse is also true. If a band's appearance in a given room, on sequential occasions, coincides with nobody being there, the band won't last long in the room.
A club owner who confronts the former situation--a band and a full room coinciding--and who doesn't reward the band with good pay and a sustained relationship is being a fool. So the wine-bar guy in the article was being a fool in the anger he projected on singles night, and the musician was exactly right in his claims.
By the same token, it is not unreasonable of the club to expect at least SOME increase in room traffic when a given band plays.
The problem lies with the gray area between these two extremes.
I've played clubs where the club has built in traffic. This is most common in beach locations in the summer months. People are going to be there, in part because of location and in part because the club has done the RIGHT things over the year(s) and has brought in enough good bands, and created a good enough time for enough people, that that club is now "the place to go." The music is an integral part of that, but it almost doesn't matter what the band is, as long as it's up to spec.
By the same token, I've played at out of the way locations, with no built in crowd or street traffic, and I've convinced the bar owner to book me. It's quite reasonable that the bar owner has a "show me" attitude regarding my ability to pull a crowd.
The article cites a limiting case. $75 for the entire band? Come on. At bare minimum, the band should have insisted on a tip bucket, or a % of paid admission once the $75 threshold had been reached. The best gigs, especially those in rooms without the built-in beach crowd, usually have some sort of incentive arrangement that makes it in the band's interest to help promote and bring bodies.
"There's no such thing as too much publicity." My old manager used to say that. It means that even when everybody--club, band, everybody--does all they can to promote a gig, that may turn out to not be quite enough. So the concept of partnership is crucial. It's reasonable of the club to ask the band what it's going to do by way of letting folks know about the gig. And it's equally reasonable of the band to ask the club what IT'S going to do.
Goldberg's piece remains interesting and, as far as it goes, mostly true.
But the surest way of any band not encountering these problems is to get such a big reputation that, when word gets out about the gig, people are lining up outside the club, no matter where the club happens to be located.
Satan & Adam had this briefly, in the aftermath of our 1991 debut at the Philly RiverBlues Festival. We played a Philly club called the Barbary that fall--a real dive in an out-of-the-way location--and there were so many people lining up outside the club that the owner had to turn the house--kick everybody out after the first show--and offer a second show, with a separate admission charge, that night. The owner was blown away. A blues duo? Who WERE these guys? He brought us back another 3-4 times over the next two years. We never did that well again. But he stuck with us.
We did the same thing later on with a Philly club called The North Star. First time in, we packed it out. We had a guarantee + % arrangement. I remember going home with $650 in my pocket. From a club! In 1994. (Sterling got the same thing.) We played there another half-dozen times and slowly things dried up. Was it our fault or the club's? The woman who paid us, Lisa, stuck with us to the end. Eventually the club--a bar/restaurant with a dining room that converted into a music room--went under.
Word to the wise: If you're playing a club for the first time and it's a gig you'd like to keep, do every single thing you can to bring people in the door that first time. Even if you don't do quite that well the following times, the club owner will always thing of you as "the guys who packed the place."
Last Edited by on Jan 22, 2012 5:00 AM
From what I have observed over the years what the article and Adam say holds lots of truth. One thing that has changed radically is how people view live music. There use to be a "minor" leauge so to speak club circuit around the country. These were the small bars that were open for business all week and featured music 5-7 nights a week. There was a dedicated stage, dance floor in front of it, tables, a pool table in the back, and a hard liquor bar. These places were frequented because people dug seeing live music. there was a cover charge on weekends, and during the week if a bigger name band had an off night and played there. The up and coming on that level played the weeknights and if they showed promise got to open on the weekends. The weekends were for the local big names and touring bands that weren't quite yet able to fill the next size venue. It all worked pretty smoothly. Clubs have always been a near impossible thing to keep open for more that a decade but back then there were many that achieved this.
What music one was going to see was a big part of the culture. Nowadays I don't see this and I see an ever increasing scene where music is in the backround-diner places, coffee shops, art galleries, etc. Also these dedicated live music clubs were 80% or more filled with young people. Again I don't see this today. Young people then came out to see all kinds of music. Today it just isn't happening. They need to get off their butts if it is going to happen again. I can vividly remember how hard the young club owners, managers, worked back then. It never was an easy job. You lived it 24/7. That drive just isn't present today or it would be happening.
It was always a struggle to get paid. Like adam said, clubs that had their own draw always paid well but getting in them was pretty much reserved for the big name bands on that minor leauge circuit. The best example I can give is this. I played the black cat lounge on 6th street in austin more than anyone. The owner dug what I did and the place was packed pretty much every night of the week. He was a master at filling his room. Also it only held about 80 people and with all the foot traffic on 6th street, it was always streaming over to the street. That created a buzz much like a busker does when a few people stop and then more stop to see what is going on. He had the stage located at the front door and it opened to the street so people got to see the band right in their face as they walked by. His tip jar bucket on a closeline that went from one end of the club to the stage, his biker/yuppie buckets ( bikers got 6 buds in crushed ice and yuppies got 6 heinikens), free hot dogs, and a million other ever changing of things, kept things always exciting. Eventually this club boiled down to hard core music lovers. You got 10% of the bar (beer only) and tips. Musicians laughed at him in the beginning but whent they came to learn I was taking in 4-6 hundred a night on weekends and 1/2 that on weekdays, they were lining up to play. He eventually expanded and moved a couple doors down. A couple who were big fans of the club moved in the old one and hired me for their first weekend. I played to nobody (you can see it in the video clip) yet only 2 doors down the new club was overflowing again. the new owners didn't have the PT Barnum air that Paul the owner of the black cat had. THey also had the stage way in the back of the club. Nobody wants to walk into an empty club unless they are hard core into the music. Many of the regulars stopped by that weekend and so did Paul. They said the energy was gone and it was. They folded real quick.
People in general like winners. Somehow figure out how to portray yourself as one and the place will fill up. this comes via media hype. I remember when a big name like joey ramone or sombody of his fame or bigger would come and sit in with my band at a club like the hole in the wall, continental, flying circus, austin outhouse. These clubs were off the beaten path by 6th street standards. The word would spread like wildfire (pre cell phone days) and soon the place would be overflowing. People wanted to shake my hand, buy me a drink, etc. The next night I would play the same club and no star there and the crowd would be fairly big but soon, like adam stated it dried up.
I have no answers as to how to fix the current life support scenario live music in small clubs is experiencing. I do know that young people have historically supported american roots music. Once you get a career going, kids, and such, your club days are usually numbered as a spectator. I remember being gone to europe to play for a month or 2 and coming back to the black cat lounge. I was often greeted at the door by someone who would tell me all about the club like they had been coming for years. I would smile and thank them but keep it to myself that I had been playing it several nights a week for almost a decade. People in transition with relationships, careers, life, often frequented the live music clubs. Once their life got stable you rarely saw them. The pure music lover has always been a rare breed. Maybe that other group, the one in transition, has found other avenues to bounce in until they figure things out like these forums and such??
As far as pay goes. I have a $150 and hour fee for a local gig. That includes my time at the club. $300 will get you basically 2-45 minute sets. If I never do another live gig again that is ok. I will not play for free, pay to play, or pay for next to nothing. Hell, I have been honing my craft for over 40 years and respect it enough to charge this fee. Starting out everyone has to play for nothing or near it. that has always been true. Walter
---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
Walter, you just described me! Umm, except that I can't make them up either! ---------- Andrew. ----------------------------------------- https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000874537399
it sure is a catch-22. how are you going to get a following if you dont get to play.
my band has been doing "freebies" at various charity-type events to earn a following. we just do a set, maybe a couple of short sets. we encourage dancing and work the crowd.
afterwards, i make a point of thanking whoever was running the gig. i bring up the point that we had people dancing. i try to stay with him long enough that a couple of people will come up and say what a fun time they had. and, yes, i have told some friends to say this and had other friends tell the boss man they had a good time.
in doing these type of gigs, we have gotten some pretty good gigs and promises that they will be CALLING US, for next summer's local festivals.
"People in transition with relationships, careers, life, often frequented the live music clubs. Once their life got stable you rarely saw them."
Truer words were never written, Walter. My plunge into the clubs as a performing musician who also went there on my off-nights was grounded in the fact that my private life was a wreck. Boy, those days were vivid! But there's only so much vividness a body can take before it starts to wear out.
I saw Wynton Marsalis and his band in New York 10 years ago. That was great! So the question a music pro or a semi pro has to ask himself is "Am I great?".
If you are not, you should pay to be on the stage. Live music is not a welfare institution. I have been bored by soooo many " blues bands" with crocodile shoes, green bullets and funny hats.
I think the location of the place, the people, the beer and the food is important. I would rather listen to a Little Walter CD at the pub than a mediocre blues band.
1 keep the band down to 4 people 2 agree on the payoff with the owner when the till hits a certain amount and a pitcher of beer for the band and free coffee and soda every break. you cant charge a door cover if you dont have a girl in the band. 3 do a sound check with your finger in your ear and make sure the band sounds good at the door. it doesnt matter how it sounds to you. mark all your levels with tape. the audience and owner will suggest you do this and that do it then set your levels back to the tape marks. 4 the front man is the body guard and has to dance with the old bats wear good boots preferable steel toe. 5 if someone wants happy birthday tell them ok 10 bucks. no ifs ands or buts its not part of your set you need money for this. tell them to put the money in your boot never get caught taking money or drugs. 6 do a happy birthday set for 15 min then fart around for 45 mins while the cake is out and blah blah the juke milk it as long as you can till the owners says hey arent you supposed to be playin? 7 stretch the songs out esp your break song/announcents song. i suggest peter gunn, walk dont run, sleepwalk etc. instrumentals the singer needs a break. 8 play songs that make people drink take them from old and new beer commercials if you have to. dont play originals dont play anything mellow. 9 dont take any requests without getting a tip. 10 GET PAID! if the owner gives you a song and dance go to the trash cans and start counting bottles. if that doesnt work thats what your big ugly scar faced mexican drummer drummer in the leather jacket is for. if that doesnt work someone take off a jackt and show a holster. 11 GO HOME! dont have around buying drinks dont go with the guys and get some marching powder, dont go to the strip clubs. get your money and GO HOME! 12 never play for free if its an open jam benefit only play 2-3 songs free. never play a party for food and drinks people who throw parties have money. NO PAY-NO PLAY- NO WAY!
Im just an amateur and dont know from nothing but it seems when you first play you should play for peanuts....thats your audition...if people like you then they will come back and then maybe you will make a few bucks
I downloaded nat riddles and charlie hilberts live @el cafe street-nat makes the annoucement more than once"no cover and no minimum drinks"-if I had been there I would have been generous @ the tip bucket
Great thread Greg. The things listed in the article are all true here in New England. A couple of thoughts. First, I am a semi-semi pro. I gig 2 times a month and always within 30 miles of my home. Years ago we got 500-800$ as a 5-7 piece, today the negotiation starts @ 400$, the bottom is usually 50$ a head. At the bottom end, I ask that we receive a little more if the bar happens to do very well.
Last summer I had a mid week gig at a bar located at the beach. It took place after a free outdoor blues concert next to the bar and the owner wanted to pick up some business from those who attended it. For the most part, we drew decent audiences, they danced and really enjoyed themselves. But there were a few times when the place was empty by the 3rd set and the mgt sent us home after our 2nd set. It was part of our deal with them, that we would "work" with them. I remember one night a couple came in and danced all night and we said to us we were fabulous. At the end of the night, the owner came over to us and told us that couple that enjoyed us so much bought one cranberry juice and water all night. Total tab, 2 bucks, no tip! She said blues band tend to draw an older demographic and they just don't drink like they use to. She said she can get a crappy band that plays hard rock and they attract younger kids who are going to drink shots of jaeger all night and fill the coffers. Fact is blues/RnB is not something that that popular at the moment as it was many years ago. I am not talking the SRV stuff, but Chicago blues, west Coast Swing, etc.
Bar owners tend to hire smaller groups, 2-3 man bands that play a wide range of cover tunes. Nothing special, nobody really pays attention to them, there is no "show" and nobody is dancing, but it fills the ether. Strumming along, playing Eagles and Jimmy Buffet.
Many times, these bands are offshoots of larger rock bands, looking to fill their calendar. They typical have a website/ social network/ marketing and use that to attract crowds which the bar owners love and always ask whether we can provide that (concept of bringing in 10 of your friends.) I know several bands that offer a "band" that can do a Bob Marley tribute one night, jam band another night, Great Dead covers another night and classic rock on another night. Same personnel, different name, just a different offering depending on what the client wants. It is a very popular model in my area.
So times have changed and I guess the musicians have to also. What have we done? We are a 4 piece band now, the piano and sometimes horns have been let go. That drummer that insisted on bringing his enormous set has been let go and replace with a drummer that uses a kit that matches the size of the room we play in. We play more danceable tunes (yes, we do request, even Mustang Sally because people want to hear it. WTF is wrong with that?!) I never ask for an open tab for food or drinks because I don't want it part of the compensation package. Owners always remember who the drinkers are and who abuses it. My bass player is told to have a martini beforehand, we are not Dino Martin/Rat Pack and we are there to play, not drink. And I will not chase musicians smoking in the parking lot anymore. We come to play, are polite to the staff (yes, we leave a small tip for them at the end of the night, believe me, its the best 5-10$ I spend for marketing, better than posters.) Remember, bartenders and staff have a following too and they remember those that show respect for them. Sure some owners are assholes and ask to much. But just as many are people trying to run a business and get it. If they can hire a 2 man band that plays like crap and attracts a huge crowd for little money, well, that's the reality my friend. Either tinker with your model or move down the road and try the next place.
Last Edited by on Jan 22, 2012 11:36 AM
"Ain't no money in poetry. That's what sets the poet free. I've had all the freedom I can stand."- Guy Clark
Although it wouldn't work in most big cities here is an interesting idea that could work in some locations, Fair Trade Music
Regarding the LA ariticle, little has changed since I lived and played in LA 40 years ago, when Gazzari's on Sunset was being picketed by the AFM, making walking the picket line one of the best gigs in town because the union paid you.
The idea of arguing or educating club owners that their business model is wrong is futile at best. The guy/gal considers themselves a business person. Does anyone really think they will accept business advise from a musician?
I remember having a discussion with a bar owner decades ago who had a large sign over the door, "Cardiff's premier live music venue. Live music seven nights a week." The slogan was repeated in all their advertising. This "premier venue" built the stage half way up the large stairwell, bar below, restaurant above. The band faced a wall a few feet from the stage. There was about a four foot gap between the bottom of that wall and the bar below where the bar customers could crane their necks and see through. Above was a railing where people would stand with drinks in their hands which commonly spilled on the drummer and gear below. We drew well above average but the pay was set in stone and barely average at best. We got called out one night for playing an encore finishing 5 minutes over time.
In my conversation with the owner I asked him since his bar marketed itself on the backs of musicians how was it he treated musicians like crap. His reply? "If your name's Paul McCartney I'll give you anything you want. If you don't like it, don't play here. I've got loads of bands calling me everyday and frankly, it doesn't matter who I book, the crowd averages out over time. I want things run a certain way and that's the end of it." It struck me like a bolt. From his perspective, he's got a valid point. That was when I stopped debating with or trying to educate bar owners. BTW, the bar was successful for about 5 or 6 years then faded. He sold out, made a lot of money, and opened another place on the same model in the middle of the student district and packed that place out as well for a few years. A good friend of mine played there with a top line A list British blues band. He asked where the dressing room was and was directed to the disabled toilet where he found most of the rest of the band elbowing each other for room to put a shirt on. ---------- LSC
Last Edited by on Jan 22, 2012 11:58 AM
Just last week, another bar in my area closed for lack of business. Most bars love to have live music but some are having trouble just trying to stay in business. Back in the 70s, 80s and early 90s the bars around here were packed on the weekends and about all of them had live bands. Now you go to one on a Saturday night and there might be 5 or 6 people in it. What's the reason for this? The government for one (state and federal). First the feds (I'm talking about the USA) mandated that all states raise the drinking age to 21 or lose federal highway funding. This hurt bars in college towns because most college students are under 21. Second, the federal government dictated that states must have a legal limit of .08% blood alcohol reading or lose federal highway funds. A 160 pound man could be legally drunk after 3 beers. A 110 pound woman could be considered drunk after 2 beers. Add to that the stricter state penalties for DWI and people are afraid to go out and drink anywhere. My opinion is that it's hardcore drunks that are causing drunk driving accidents not people with a .08% blood alcohol level. Also this neverending recession that we are having with almost 10% unemployment is also having an effect on bar business and in turn has an effect on performing musicians.
When i gigged 90s and early 2000s!! we never played without agreeing the fee first.. except once where we got paid on how many tickets we sold for the "main" band..we had to set up on the floor in-front of the stage as they had all their gear set up... well we ended getting a better reception than them! and we earned next to nothing! but what a great night. On the flip-side i once handed back my fee on a paid charity gig.
I can also recall playing a low paid try before you buy gig! and the place was bursting at the seams people were going into other bars saying you have to come and hear this blues band! great night with great audience interaction! after the gig we said to the landlady when do you want us back?...she said we don't!! our regulars left! WTF we said well tell us where all those people drink and we will play there!!
Last Edited by on Jan 22, 2012 12:19 PM
Hakan: I'd much rather see a mediocre blues band at a bar. I can listen to Little Walter at home. I think that attitude is part of the problem with today's music scene for the small / semi-pro guys. If the true music lovers would rather sit at home and listen to CDs, who is going to come to see the live music?
this is the best thread on the forum in a long time-I blow harp only to participate in an american form of music that I have loved for over 45 years-if you are good I will come to enjoy and PAY!!!!if you are talented you deserve to be compensated for your time-which is precious and maybe limited
I agree with jdblues, unless the band is sub-mediocre and is painful to hear. The interaction of live musicians in the moment is part of the attraction for me. I have read that Little Walter played Juke differently each time. The recording will be the same every time you play it, even if excellent.
Of course I would prefer a good live band to a mediocre one.
This is a great thread, since the issues identified appear to be universal. Around here people are playing for the same or less money than they did in the 70s and 80s.
Greg, right on the money. I had the same thing happen on New Years Eve. We should have got paid $650 but we got $400 because we didn't bring 25 or 30 people. The owners skipped out and left the bar maid to pay us. I also had a bar owner call 2 weeks ago and wanted to book us, we had played there over a year ago. He ask if we were open for the weekend. Then he says oh wait how many people follow your band around. I told him the truth "not many" and he said never mind. I agree I furnish the talent and music and the bar supplies the patrons. Mike
It seems that the live music biz has been tied to the "buzz" from day one. The music drives the party and the booze drives the cash register. Times have really changed when it comes to public buzzing as well as the clutter of other forms of high-tech entertainment. Today it seems that the venues that focus on good food offerings and atmoshere are doing better than the basic gin joints. Bottom line... it's over...the old days are just that... we are in a new frontier in many ways in todays world... live music will live forever...just where it comes from will be the question.
There's a bar here in Pittsburgh that closed many moons ago but in the back room were the bands would hang - there was a picture drawn on the wall of the bar owner fu#$@*% band members in the ass- hahahahahahahahahaha....
