Here's some superb, harp-heavy band stuff, just uploaded (80 hits), recorded in Brazil, I think: Kim Wilson, Billy Flynn, and the Headhunters. The band doesn't quite gel for some reason, but that's what makes this interesting: precisely BECAUSE the groove is a little unsteady and the bass is mixed very low, you get a chance to hear what Wilson is made of. He's forced to carry a little more of the weight, but he responds to that challenge by leaving a lot of space. He has a singular way of phrasing across the bar lines; his "typical" phrase is longer, wily-er, than pretty much any of the top players out there, but the musical logic is always impeccable. I've sometimes thought he was too stylized, but I hear a jazzman's imagination here. He's using a lot of major thirds and sixths. But it's the relaxation within the phrasing that's striking here. Listen all the way through; late in the clip he throws in some serious warbles. Good music:
Whoa! I reckon I would have found it quite difficult to play with that group. I mean the lead guitarist is playing some pretty weird riffs in strange places and the band seems to be doing something between early rock and roll and jazz. Maybe that's why I don't understand it.
I think the problem was with the bass and drums. I don't see much of a problem with what Billy was playing, unless he extended his comp riffs a touch too long, but I think that he was trying to keep the beat because the drummer was not, with the result that he didn't leave Kim enough space on occasion. You can see Billy trying to round them up (the band). kudzurunner is correct. Kim Wilson has the jazzman's imagination, and he salvaged the jam with his improvisation. Because of the lack of space and unsteady rhythm of the band, he expanded the space in response.
Last Edited by on Jan 20, 2012 6:43 AM
Maybe this deserves it's own thread,but I'll keep it here for now. In the above video, I know things aren't clicking,but I don't know why. I'd have no idea what to tell the band to fix it. It's perhaps a big hole in my learning process. Can anybody help me out here?
@Tuckster: I can offer an analysis that might be accurate, but I'm afraid the fix is a "feel" thing that the band is going to have to find for themselves. IIRC, Adam has told us about some jazzmen's explanation of what real swing is: somebody's got to be pushing the beat a little, and someone else playing further behind the beat, and the tension between the two makes the swing happen. I think what we hear in the video above is that there's no dynamic tension in the rhythm section--I *think* the three locals are all trying to lay back behind the beat, with nobody pushing.
Also, you notice that the drummer is not really trying any Fred-Below-style dynamic moves back there, besides routine flourishes, except around 4:15 when Billy Flynn and Kim prompt him forcefully? Nor can I see the bass player leaning into it anywhere, except at those points. It's pretty static and doesn't swing to start with, maybe for the reason offered above. And I'm afraid the drummer maybe even falters and drags the beat a little around 1:15 and 6:15, loses track of where the time is.
It reminds of what IMO was a problem in Gary Primich's bands, live: his rhythm sections tended to swing, for sure, but statically--almost no dynamic flourishes, even when Gary was whipping things up. That's easier to project harp over, if your drummer is using sticks, but it's not as exciting as it could be for the audience.
Towards the fix: The top-tier bands are justly proud of their ability to make swing happen anywhere, anytime, no sleep, lots of sleep, strange food, etc. It tends to start with the bass/drums chemistry, whether they can find that push-pull feel swing readily. I think the locals in this video may be too intimidated by the occasion to do what they're really capable of, but they've all got to know where the strict time is and find *different* pockets relative to that beat. Then keep paying attention and conduct some conversation musically, suggesting movement relative to the beat (usually a push) or responding to others' suggestions, like they manage to do around 4:15 where it works best. It's more engaging to the audience if there's some ebb and flow going on underneath.
If you want to understand how that works, watch a typical four-piece harp-led unit when the guitar player switches from rhythm playing to a lead solo on an uptempo tune. The swing/drive tends to falter somewhat, because the guitarist's part in the equation has been subtracted, and the bass/drums have to come up with a new dynamic equation on the fly, find new spots relative to the beat, and the harp player often isn't doing anything at all to help, they're sipping water or wiping their face with a towel or whatever.
Rick Estrin is one notable exception--you'll see him work a rhythm part into the equation underneath. That was the bane of my existence when I was playing with Jonn Richardson + good rhythm sections regularly, because he's got some outstanding rhythmic guitar feel, but I felt like the bottom dropped out of things when he switched to lead--we would have to shift our rhythmic pockets around behind him, because we had all developed a place relative to each other as well as to the strict time, the pure beat, so when the guitarist dropped out to play lead, we had to kinda scramble around to find something else that worked.
So you have to start with a core that can swing, and keep paying attention, and not be afraid to suggest something--the first thing I figured out was that when playing rhythm, I could goad the drummer into pushing things a little going into the turnaround. It's a feel thing, but bandleaders can and do teach it. It's one good reason to hang around with old guys who can do it :) You have to know where the time is, and find a meaningful spot relative to that and to each other. Like I said, I think in the above video the bottom three guys are all laying back in a bunch behind the beat, maybe on practically the same spot, and there's no push-pull tension or swing most of the time.
Sorry there is no video to go with this verbal response. I don't feel like looking for one right now, having already said too much. :(
I forgot to say that a good shuffle drummer tends to have some of that push-pull tension in what their own hands and feet are doing. That's a learned skill and maybe the drummer in the OP video is too nervous to do it as well as they know how.
My take is that the three locals are a pick up band - a local band that is created to handle a gig as back up to a major performer. Perhaps the local musicians union called on available players.
There is no interplay between these 3. Each are playing their part (bass, drum, guitar), with perhaps creativity and interplay not being part of their job description.
They may also be inexperienced backing up a major talent.
Don't believe Kim gets mad about stuff like this any more. He just does what he does regardless.
On gigs like this, I've seen him give his best, but stick absolutely to the required set length, stopping on the dot when the contractual time is reached.
On gigs where he is having fun relating to the musicians, I've seen him extend for quite a while past the end of the set.
Agreed that his ideas are totally compelling and intelligent as well as sounding fat and juicy.
htownfess & Iceman- thanks. I feel a little better now that there's someone else that has difficulty verbalizing this. I can understand the "feel' thing. If you pick apart the instruments,nobody is doing anything terribly wrong.It's the interplay that's missing. It's amazing how much time & timing affect music.
htownfess- How about anything off "Smoking Joint". I can "feel" that one. Those guys are locked in,but they are always changing to make it feel that way.
I would suspect that much of the technical comments are correct, however I wouldn't be surprised if at least some of this came out of deference to Kim and/or nerves. Like the astronauts prayer, "Dear Lord don't let me f**k this up." The guitar player closest to the camera playing rhythm and fills has some authentic parts going from time to time, which would indicate a certain amount of studying the form. One kind of figures the band he's in might also have at least some knowledge. If so, it wouldn't be surprising if they walked out on stage and were struck with, "Holy crap Batman, we're backing Kim freakin' Wilson!", and retreated into where they thought it was safe.
I know long time sidemen and session players often get really stiff. They're afraid to do anything else. This often comes about because they will have experienced the Artist telling them "Don't do that!" in no uncertain terms. I know at least one former drummer who was with a Rock and Roll Hall of Fame member for four years and then got sacked for "making suggestions." ---------- LSC
That guitar player is Billy Flynn, a long time staple of the Chicago blues scene. He's played with Kim a lot over the years. Hence the "authentic parts". Billy is kind of a Chicago version of Rusty Zinn.
If Kim is asked to do a lower paying gig in which he is not able to afford bringing his band with him, he will use a local back up band as long as he can bring a guitar player of his choice with him. I can promise you that Billy is not part of those other three musicians or that band.
---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by on Jan 20, 2012 8:55 PM
Besides nerves, another problem for the locals is that their guitar player may not be used to playing "bottom" guitar parts, if he's a hot local player--not his usual role with his rhythm section, I mean. I don't think there is much that Billy Flynn can do about the rhythm from the "top" guitar position on this song--his guitar part isn't continuous enough to carry the locals into a better groove.
@Tuckster, SMOKIN' JOINT isn't really a favorite of mine, but I'll pick a perhaps more apropos example that was instigated by the Iceman himself. The video below is from Kim's "breakout" performance at the 1998 SPAH convention, where he is doing the "local pickup band + ringer guitar player" thang, in this case with rhythm section/piano from Big Dave and the Ultrasonics, plus Chicago's Nick Moss on guitar. This is by no means the groovingest thing in that landmark set where Kim blew away the elder wing of the SPAH membership; that performance is a *must-buy* and a superlative example of a pickup band locking in with a master.
This tempo isn't too far off the OP vid, but the locals are out to show Kim that they can hang. Ben Wilson on piano went on to join Blues Traveler and IMO he's brilliant on Kim's set. Listen for things coming together, say around 2:15, then surging at 3:15 and 4:12 under the guitar solo, the harp and piano around 4:30, how they're going at 6:45 under the harp solo. They're content to rise up and settle back, ebb and flow--they're focused, but they're not trying too hard or forcing it.
They really got it going at many points in the evening, a dazzling version of "Down at Antone's" with Kim's solo breakdown for example, much more harpcentric and illustrative of pickup band principles than SMOKIN' JOINT. An epic set if you know what the occasion meant; kudos to the Iceman for making that possible.
Speaking of Jonn Richardson and instigating swing from the top guitar part, I found a perfect vid example of the thang he does with mandolinist Rich DelGrosso, but with a pickup band that includes the fabulous Jimi Bott on drums and the great Grant Dermody on harp. Watch for what I meant about the drive/swing kinda falling out a bit when Jonn goes to solo around 3:20, because you can hear the band adapt and generate a new version of the groove sans the driving guitar part, and really get going under Jonn's solo--check what they're doing by 4:15 or so.
It is *so* much fun to play that song with Jonn, but I wish I could be Grant Dermody when I grow up :).
I haven't listened to the song (the quality of the recording hurts my ears) but if this is a pick up band, this is the price you usually pay for agreeing to such gigs. I have been in that situation more times than I can count. I booked the calendar first and found a drummer and often times a bassist and hopefully found a decent one before showtime. Often times I didn't and muddled through. It was part of my learning curve but today I would choose to bag groceries for pay than be paid playing such situations. For me, being professional means having the right situation to make the music the way I want to make it. This pick up band scenario is ingrained in the blues culture or at least it was when I was involved with it. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
htownfess- I like the term "ebb and flow" to describe what that first video did NOT have. As far as a "pickup" band. I guess Big Dave & the Ultrasonics didn't know what Kim was going to do,but they are used to backing a harp player. I'm not sure the band in the 1st video did. Personal tastes aside, I thought "Smokin' Joint" was a good example of a band(s) that was really locked in. Am I missing something there? Can't really call them a "pickup" band.
@Iceman- Ahh, that explains much, why Billy seems to be in the neigborhood and the rest of the band is two counties away. But hey, I'm sure the lads were doing their best and maybe should be cut some slack. How many of us would actually produce our A game in such circumstance? ---------- LSC
That was a great gig to put together. It took me almost 2 years of getting to know Kim before he would trust me enough to allow me to provide a back up band for him to appear at SPAH 98. The rhythm section from Big Dave was the finest unit in the Michigan area. Knowing those guys for a while, I knew that their level of artistry would be more than sufficient as a backing band for Kim, so I proceeded with confidence.
Kim had so much fun at this gig that he definitely extended his set by an additional 40 minutes or so from his contractual obligation. Anyone that has seen that video will see Kim having a ball and being pretty funny - even that little spot where the sound man accidentally hit the reverb unit while making adjustments behind the stage during Kim's slow blues - Kim made a reference to it without being angry about the interruption.
He also makes a nice reference to my old protege, Sunny Girl and her performance at this SPAH.
It was quite the magic gig, as other major harmonica players came to SPAH as a "hang" without any contractual obligation to get them there, as is evident by the all stars that join Kim at the end of his set. ---------- The Iceman
The Iceman- Ya, I looked for more from that SPAH on Y-T,but couldn't find anymore. Always liked Big Dave & the Ultrasonics. Dave Morris has a Pittsburgh tie-in(my hometown area).
SPAH used to offer videos of the shows - the 98 Blues Show was a 2 tape vhs set.
The current SPAH has access to this material and should offer dvd's...I don't know as I have had nothing to do w/SPAH since it changed in 2000.
Check with them for availability. If they don't have it on dvd, they are missing the boat in regards to potential sales as well as unbelievable resource materials. ---------- The Iceman
I own the complete SPAH videos-I would be willing to exchange these performances on a barter basis with select individuals,as long as it would not create a hardship for anyone involved with SPAH,or create any legal issues.
@Tuckster: Sorry, I locate too many of my CDs more by archaeology than alphabetization at the moment, but I found "Smokin' Joint" at last. That's a sublimely grooving record; the point I was trying to get at was that it's a different dynamic to play with familiar people whose tendencies you anticipate than it is to play in a pickup situation and discover that you can make it happen with the players on hand. I am really impressed with how *patient* the players on "Smokin' Joint" are, which is what creates that ebb & flow--they're not trying to make something happen all the time.
