waltertore
1836 posts
Jan 08, 2012
1:20 PM
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I have been a 1 man band-drums/cymbal on feet, harp on a rack, vocals, guitar, keys- on and off since the mid 70's. I started with Wilbert Harrison who is arguably one of the biggest name 1 man bands of the 60's/70's. He had a big top 40 hit with lets work together as a 1 man band and with Kansas city in the 50's with a real band behind.
Wilbert used a bass drum, high hat with a tamborine on it, played guitar, harp on a rack and sang. I used that same set up for most my of days. Probably 20% of my time was spent as a 1 man band. I mostly used a real drummer and bassist but for the past 10 years I have been focused pretty much on just the 1 man band concept. I do it all in real time. No overdubs or machines-what you hear are all real instruments in real time. This presents many challenges with everything being so close together. The key is to play quiet. I am at speaking volume on all my instruments and voice. This and the isolation barriers I have built help cut down on this but even at this volume mic bleeding can be a problem. In small amounts this is a good thing but if it gets too much it makes eq'ing next to impossible. The next big hurdle I face is using the same mic for the vocals and harp. The harp is a naturally shrill instrument and it conflicts with the vocal tones. The highs on the harp need to be cut and the highs on the vocals are a good to have. Also using a harp rack removes all sound deadning that the hands give. Not cupping, but just your hands on a harp takes a lot of the highs off it. I have found the electrovoice R20 to be the best mic to date because it has less of a high end to it than most large diaphram condensor mics.
Today I rearranged much of my isolation setups. I have done this probably 100's of times via just moving them around, changing isolation materials, and instrument/mic placements. It is a never ending puzzle that never ceases to fascinate me. If my recording gear was taken away I would quit playing. The recording puzzle fuels my inspiration to keep playing. Here are some pictures of my set up as of today. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
3,500+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Jan 08, 2012 1:28 PM
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Jagrowler
83 posts
Jan 09, 2012
3:02 PM
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Just wondering Walter - is there any way to amp up instruments that need it (eg guitar) and ignore those that don't (eg drums), then record via a single vocal mic at the end of the room.
It may be a dumb question as all this recording stuff is above my pay-grade, but it would be nice to know your experience.
ps - nice to see photo's of a real recording set-up. I especially like all those foam baffles!
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waltertore
1840 posts
Jan 09, 2012
4:09 PM
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Jagrowler: Yes you can use just 1 mic to capture everything. My neighbor is a world class (retired) viola player. He was on those mercury record recordings of the classical classics from the 50's. He said they brought one mic in the concert hall and those recordings still shine as stellar. Most music today tends to multi mic everything and do it in isolation booths and or overdubb. Example- for a solo player- play the acoustic guitar then overdub the vocals so as to capture each thing with no bleeding from the other. I have tried the 1 room mic approach many times for what I do but find it doesn't capture the depth of the multi mic thing. You end up with an old time sound and if that is what you are after then it is a great way to go. I bet the robert johnson recordings and others from that era were done with one mic. Plus using just one mic means a ton of time has to be used to get it set just right. If you put it right in front of your voice it will not pick up the other instruments very well. You would have to find a spot in the room that picked up a good balance between the voice and instruments. There is an art to mic placements. Plus there are mics that have pickup patterns that go from picking up just what is in front of it, to everything around it, and ones that are very specific to very generic in how good they do these things. there are a ton of preamps/compressors/eq's choices that each have their own character as well. That is the good news. The bad news is you can't go try these things out like you do an amp or guitar. It is often trial and error. Having someone you respect help guide you is a great thing in the recording field. It all can be very overwhelming. I am self taught with recording and playing instruments. I know nothing of theory, scales, positions, note layout of the harp, etc. I let my ears tell me what is right and wrong and am not afraid to turn dials and experiment. I prefer to learn this way.
I am glad I am so inspired to record my music. Most musicians leave their sound in the hands of others. I have been there. It oftentimes leaves you with a nice recording that you hate the sound of. The recording of your music is akin to you playing your instruments IMO. Would people let others play their music for them? Not likely yet the way one is recorded will greatly influence how it sounds. I can't even listen to the handheld cameras/phone youtube videos posted on the net anymore. the video on cameras today is good but the sound is still painfully bad. I have no idea how people can comment on how so and so's tone is so great. It sounds like crap to my ears. IMO it is essential the musician control the sound that he makes and how it is recorded. Sinatra was the king of this. He controlled every aspect and his capitol and reprise recordings still are what people measure thier sound against. I am in total control of my music with the 1 man band and recording studio. I dig the sounds I am making and capturing and that is all that matters. What others think is not a priority to me. Thanks for the compliment on my studio. It is a 40 year dream come true! Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
3,500+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Jan 09, 2012 5:18 PM
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shadoe42
107 posts
Jan 09, 2012
7:23 PM
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Have you tried multiple room mics? Like two or three? a bit out so you get the natural reverb of the room but not to far away? Just curious as to what all you have tried over the years.
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The Musical Blades
My Electronic Music World
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Jagrowler
84 posts
Jan 10, 2012
1:16 AM
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Thanks Walter - your dedication to 'doing your own thing' is a true inspiration - too many people are trying to make a fast buck or get become famous. Being creative irrespective of others opinions is a great example.
Interesting that you dislike some recordings available on the internet. As I said earlier, all this recording stuff is beyond my experience, but my ears suggest that some recordings (especially those recorded on a computer) lack any natural 'feel' at all. I am unsure what causes this, but guess that the user has dialled in too much manipulation to the sound. Like you, I am a little bemused by certain comments about tone, and wonder if some use it to indicate that they like the recording, as against the actual quality of the sound.
Anyway, lets not worry too much about others. Onwards to the next practice/ busking performance/ recording!
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Steamrollin Stan
232 posts
Jan 10, 2012
3:12 AM
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And here i sit with my ten buck mic and audacity as my forgiving friend.
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avagoodweekend!!
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waltertore
1841 posts
Jan 10, 2012
3:25 AM
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shadoe42: I use one room mic. If you look at the first picture you will see it. My room has very little natural reverb. I built the studio as one room with no control booth so I need to keep the acoustics somewhat neutral. I use 5 tracks/5mics:
vocals/hrp- Electrovoice R20
cymbal- akg c414
snare - akg 414
guitar amp shure 57
room- oktava mk219 modified by my friend michael joly of oktava mod
I take the oktava track, copy it and add it as a 6th track and then mix them in ever so lightly.
Jagrowler: I started my career on tape but now record on the computer. Part of the dryness, harshness, that people complain about with digital is due to cheap recording gear and poor recording skills. If you use a cheapo reel to reel and cheap mic like I first started on, the results sound pretty bad too. To my ears my computer digital stuff stands up pretty well to stuff recorded on tape. The songs I can't listen to are the ones made on the video cameras and phone cameras. the mics on those things are painfully bad. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
3,500+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Jan 10, 2012 3:30 AM
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HarpNinja
2140 posts
Feb 09, 2012
8:58 AM
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Walter,
Can you speak more to what you are using for mixing gear? For example, where are you sending these signals too?
What interface?
DAW?
Are you hitting a mixer, compressor, or EQ before the computer?
I remember you mentioning plug-ins as part of post production as well as having some excellent recording/mixing gear.
I am not looking to create pro recordings, but am trying to record direct and get some solid AMATEUR recordings. To put it in perspective, I am using a Mackie Onyx Blackjack for my interface - which has really nice digital preamps (so solid for the under $500 range). I am trying to learn how to use Reaper (used Audacity before), and about ready to move on solid monitors (Yamaha HS50M - I will eventually need a subwoofer, but the room is too small to get 8" or 10" drivers).
Again, everything is recorded direct sans vocals, so it is a different situation (and I will only be using two stereo tracks for instrumentation, so most of the effects will be done in real time). Most of my effects in post production will have to be on the entire instrumentation and I will keep the vocals on a separate track.
In other words, I can tweak EQ and compression in post production, but things like synths, delays, and filters will be in real time.
The goal is to get good enough quality for assessing my performance and sharing demos exclusively online. If I want pro recordings, I can record scratches at home and go to a real studio to recreate that style/song/sound.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Mods
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
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waltertore
1954 posts
Feb 09, 2012
10:43 AM
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Mike: Here is what I use:
What interface?
MOTU 2408 mkIII PCIe
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/2408CorePCIe/
DAW?
sweetwater creation station
http://www.sweetwater.com/creation_station/CS400
Are you hitting a mixer, compressor, or EQ before the computer?
no mixer going into the computer. I do use a mixer to mix the drums, vocals, guitar, keys, into my headphones and add reverb also. This does not go into the computer. I use a compressor on my vocals and guitar because the universal audio preamps come with them. LA610
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LA610mk2
6176
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/6176
the preamps for the other 3-4 tracks I record on don't have compressors. I use bare bones compression on the input signals from the mic to the interface- just to add a bit a warmth.
I use the universal audio quad card. It allows you to use the universal audio plugins they sell. I use light compression on the other tracks via plugins. I also use them for mastering, reverb and eq
here are the ones I use:
neve1081
emt 140 plate reverb
LA2A compressor
1176 compressor
Ampex tape emulator
Studer tape emulator
pultec pro eq
precison eq
precision limiter
precision multiband
the quad card, a 2k value, came free with the 6169 preamp/compressor. You can eq any track via plugins that come with your program after the track has been recorded. I have found the cheap plugins sound cheap. My goal is make recordings that sound as good as I do live with a good sound system. I don't change things much with the plugins other than reverb. I love the plate reverb sound. Let your ears guide you. They are the best teachers. I still don't know what I am really doing as far as the technical end of recording or playing. I just turn nobs until it sounds good. Lots of experimentations with mic placements, mic/preamp combonations, and stuff like that. I eq my keys after the fact. My keyboard is a low end thing that really doesn't sound that good. You get what you pay for with most instruments and recording gear. I don't use a sub woofer. Getting decent monitors and getting to know them is all you really need. Play great recorded music you know on them. That will get you familiar with how they portray sound. I use makie hr824's and love them. You can get them used fairly cheap. If I can be of any further help let me know! Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
3,500+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Feb 09, 2012 3:44 PM
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KingoBad
1034 posts
Feb 09, 2012
11:11 AM
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Walter,
I love the recording setup, but I am interested with the physical percussion set up for your feet. I have seen it in your videos, but what is your exact setup? Does it change, or has it changed over time?
Also, do you find that a certain quality of equipment is necessary for your foot equipment, or do you use some eclectic inexpensive stuff?
My interest is the OMB thing as well. I have experimented with a few setups, and wonder if I need to work harder at my setup or simply on my skill... I need to work on my setup before I need to record it...
Thanks,
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Danny
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JInx
174 posts
Feb 09, 2012
11:34 AM
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NIce set up! I'm working with a similar set up.
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waltertore
1956 posts
Feb 09, 2012
12:09 PM
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Kingobad: thanks! I have changed my pedal setup some over the years but have always used inexpensive foot pedals- a double bass pedal I have modified to work the snare and bass drum at the same time (on my left foot). I can switch the snare beater from a stick to a brush to get different sounds. On my right foot I use a pearl beater pedal with a very light stick end attached. I use duct tape to hold the sticks/brush to the beater. I hacksaw off the felt beater that comes with the pedal (except on the bass drum I keep the standard beater). My old drummer gave me her fathers ludwig jazz kit from the early 60's. I has the original zilgen cymbals and snare. I find the cheap gear to be fine for beaters because I play quietly(drums and cymbal no louder than a whisper). I find playing lightly I can get various cymbal and snare effects that go by the wayside if you are just bashing on them. the same thing goes for real drummers that use their hands. If they bash you get generic. If they play lightly you get style.
For recording I don't use the bass drum. It bleeds into all the mics. Bass tones are notorious for carrying to all points. My thumb and index fingers work the strings on the guitar (bare fingers). that fills in the bass fine for me. I focus on the snare and ride. It sounds more like a real club sounding kit to me than the bass drum high hat most use. I used that for years before coming to my current set up 5 or so years ago. the bass drum high hat setup is one dimensional compared to the ride/ snare setup to my ears. If it is of any comfort, I have been at this for 40 years and 20 were as a full timer. Time is the cure unfortunately but the journey is wonderful. I am on it as much as you but maybe a bit further down the road. Enjoy all points and have no fear in posting your music.
I have spent my entire career learning onstage. I never practice things. I play songs and when a new beat or instrument idea comes to me I do it in performance. the energy is what it all is about. Technique is easy to master but letting ones soul out is something few seem to realize in their playing.
Currently I am playing some amped harp on a mic stand and am running into phase issues with the vocal mic and harp mic. I kind of like the sound. It is also complicated by the harp mic picking up my voice very muffled because I have it stuffed with foam inside the beer cooler and the vocal mic picking up the muffled harp.
jlnx: Could you share some of your recordings?
ride cymbal beater
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/P900/
bass drum/snare double pedal that I have modified to have both beaters hit a pedal. This is an earlier incarnation. I now have the snare to the left of the bass drum:
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
3,500+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Feb 09, 2012 12:22 PM
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JInx
175 posts
Feb 09, 2012
8:14 PM
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Sure man, you got paypal? It's 5 bucks pet track. WmA3vac
Wm3cac
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KingoBad
1035 posts
Feb 10, 2012
5:46 AM
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Wow... That is kind of creepy...
Jinx, surely you have some samples to help sell those $5/track songs... Even the famous musicians seem to be selling them for 99 cents on iTunes and they even manage to give 30 second samples...
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Danny
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waltertore
1961 posts
Feb 10, 2012
11:38 AM
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Jlnx: No preview tracks? If not I will have to pass. Good luck and more power to you if you get $5 a track! walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
3,500+ of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Feb 10, 2012 11:39 AM
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HarpNinja
2142 posts
Feb 10, 2012
6:57 PM
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Thanks for the info!
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Mods
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
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