Over the holidays I got a D harp from PT Gazell. I've noodled with if for a week or so now, and I know the Valve/OB/Tuning discussions are popular here, so I thought I'd share my thoughts...
The harp is gorgeous and very well set up. PT did a fantastic job with adding the valves and gapping/profiling the reeds. Unvalved playing is a piece of cake, and I love playing the harp.
It took about 20min for me to get solid with the valve bending. It is very very different than overblowing. I am still not totally fluid with the note layout and not thinking before bending.
For me, and where I am at with overblowing, the valves on holes 1-6 don't do much for me. They are setup great, easy to play, and very fun, but it is just as easy FOR ME to overblow when I want notes (can't with it valved). The draw bends on 7, 8, 9, and 10 are much more practical. I like having the half step bend on the 8 like on the 4. I did realize right away, though, that I like having the overdraws on 9 and 10 and getting both those notes as I play a ton of 2nd and 3rd blues that would use those notes.
Again, that is just my filter as a strong ob/od player. If I didn't know those techniques, it would be easier to play valved for sure.
Ok, so the timbre thing. Slam me if you must, but after playing the harp and listening to any clips I can of people using valved harps, I've decided that the valved bends have every "issue" ob/od notes do. My conclusion as it relates to playing chromatically on a harp is that either the valves are overbends have the same sort of give and take.
In my head, I am interested in a compromise between overbends and valves. I am toying with setting up a harp that has the following:
No valves 1-6, but set up for overbends.
Valve on 7 blow so I get the Richter notes, BUT can bend the note down a semitone.
8 valved as I wouldn't have the overdraw on 7 available.
9 and 10 set up for overdraws as I really want the blue notes there for 2nd and 3rd position.
Another approach would be to tune 7 down a semitone and valve 4-7, which just shifts the bent notes up a hole, but I dunno.
I also got a Powerbender, but it won't ship until mid to late February. I am eager to try it, BUT find the note layout confusing..so I best actually try to play it as I can't conceptualize it.
At this point, it is easiest and most sonically pleasing for me to overbend, but I understand the difficulty in trying to play chromatically on a harp that isn't tweaked by a customizer.
Granted, I think a PROPERLY setup overbend harp is the best option, but I also see where some valved and powerbender playing is just flat out fun like playing some chromatic. If I were relatively new to trying the chromatic on diatonic thing, I would definitely look at valves before a different tuning UNLESS I hadn't learned Richter yet.
My solution.... no valves, and I've become more proficient with single reed bends, so I can bend 7, 8, 9 & 10 draw very easily without valves, as well as 1-6 blow, with the only challenge being 2 and 5 blow depending on the harp. And when I talk about single reed bends on say, hole 6, I mean a very strong bend. You get the same sound as a valved bend without losing the overblow and overdraw ability. And of course, I always retune my 7 draw down a semitone, in order to bend the 7 blow.
I became more determined to master single reed bends (though I've used them for many years) after hearing Howard's use of them on Alan Jackson's song, "Bluebird." Howard replied to me on Facebook and confirmed that he was not using valves on this harp, but would not answer whether he was using the 4 overbend or the single reed bend on 5 blow on this tune - said he didn't have time to listen and told me to join the Howard Levy Harmonica School. LOL
The ultimate custom harp would be one that allows BOTH overblows and overdraws, plus stronger single reed bends. This is a good challenge for customizers. Is this even possible??? Time will tell I suppose.
Valves are not a solution for me, in my case i only can obtain some decorations but it is almost impossible to sustain the bent pitch
Last Edited by on Jan 01, 2012 4:48 AM
Interesting topic. I'm also experimenting with different setups. Currently I have my A harp setup with valves on the blow holes 7-10. I don't use overdraws in my playing - probably just because I don't use the upper octave that much and thus I just haven't been practicing them a lot. So for me it felt natural to just valve them.
@shoulders: single reed bend is the same thing you get with valves. The valve closes the other reedslot on the hole and thus it won't participate in the bend. In regular bends the both reeds are vibrating. If you have a good custom harp you can achieve the single reed bend without the valve. As the tolerances are very tight the other reed stays in place and closes the reedslot while the other reed bends.
I just experimented with tuner and Buddha harp in C, my own custom in A and valved A harp:
Hole 2: Buddha harp 1/4 semitone, valved harp 1,5 semitones. Hole 4: Buddha full semitone, own custom 1/2 semitones, valved harp full semitone Hole 5: Buddha 1/2 semitone (?), own custom 1/3 semitones,valved full semitone Hole 6: Buddha full semitone, own custom 1/2 semitones, valved 1,5 semitones Hole 7: Buddha harp about 1/2 semitone, then it starts to change to overdraw, valved harp 1,5 semitones Hole 8: Buddha harp almost full semitone, valved harp more than a semitone. Hole 9: Buddha 1/2 semitones, valved harp more than semitone. Hole 10: Buddha harp nearly nothing, valved harp 1/2 semitones.
So my empirical little test showed that at least for me the best places to put the valves are the holes 2 and 7-9. There the difference is really easy to notice. With Buddha harp I don't really need valves with holes 4, 6 & 8 to get the single reed bends. My own custom work gives a color to the playing but I can't reach the whole semitones.
I suppose the key of the harp makes a difference too, some notes are easier for some people than the other.
I appreciate the value setup being a single reed bend. Can you expand on the single reed bend regarding the unvalved harp. I am lucky enough to have some Joe Spiers harps so it should be a technique that would be avaiable.
I guess its a bit cheap to put it this way but can you explain the benefits of these bends? Ha Ha, lifes a bit short to take on techniques without good justification.
Jim very kindly sent me a truechromatic tuned harp and a valved one, they both play beautifully but i did'nt take to them.
@Shoulders: If you ask me what's the benefit of single reed bends on half-valved harps I'd say you get away from having to learn Overblows and still be able to play all the notes on the chromatic scales.
With non-valved harp it is the same, but as you need to have a really good custom harp for this it means that you should take the full advantage of that harp and learn the overblows too. So in this case it's just a matter of coloring the playing. Think about guitarists - sometimes they want to go FROM bend to the note, sometimes bend TO the note, etc...
HarpNinja, While you do lose the note you get from 10 overdraw by valving, the note you get from the 9OD is still available by bending the 10 draw. Even when I did use overdraws I almost never used the 10 OD. I can see it's purpose(it's the flat 5 in 2nd pos.), but I never felt it was all that important. Three octaves is plenty of range to work with for me, it's more than most wind instrument have (if anything I'd rather have the range extend lower, not higher).
When you say you want to put a valve on 7blow, are you saying you want to put a valve on the 7draw slot so that you can valve bend the 7blow? Or are you saying you want to put a valve on the 7blow slot (like you would normally do when half valving) so that you can valve bend the 7draw?
If your plan is to be able valve bend the 7blow, I think you should still be able to play the 7 overdraw (I'm not completely certain, but I don't see any reason that a valve on the draw slot would prevent this).
Last Edited by on Jan 01, 2012 5:55 PM
Interesting thoughts HarpNinja. I do use the 10 overdraw on low harps. If you bend it up 1/2 step you get the tonic for 3rd position which is very cool.
Okay, I've worked my ass off to get all the draw and blow bends and all the overblows and overdraws, while bending up some of those...complete chromaticism with 2 ways of playing many notes on a diatonic.....so what the heck is a single reed bend on a typical unvalved diatonic. Are you telling me it is possible to bend blow notes 1-6 down? How have I missed this in my studies?
I just got a little belated Christmas gift (money) and so I immediately ordered a harp from PT Gazell.
HarpNinja : "I've decided that the valved bends have every "issue" ob/od notes do. My conclusion as it relates to playing chromatically on a harp is that either the valves are overbends have the same sort of give and take."
Yes, and I think it's important to note that making the key bent notes draw bends (PowerBender) avoids that issue. So I suppose the importance of that factor to the player should influence their choice. In other words, if you don't mind the different timbre (or you may even prefer it...), then the choice is between
a) Using a custom harp and perfecting overbends or b) Using a less-complicated-to-set-up harp and learning a slightly different technique and layout.
If the timbre issue is a big enough problem for someone, then there is option c)
c) learn and use altered tunings, like PowerBender.
I'm really eager to hear your impression after trying PowerBender. I reckon people who don't mind/prefer the timber of a single-reed-bend (half-valved or overbend) see the PowerBender as just a fun new layout for some licks. I think its value is in how expressive the draw (two-reed) bends can be.
I tried valved harps. At this moment I have halfvalved Powerchromatic with valves removed on holes 4, 8 and 10 (to play overblows). I like the tone of halfvalved diatonic (especially for jazz), but I dislike the feel of valves. ---------- Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
I dunno, in messing around today, I've felt that the inflection and bending I could get on things like 7 blow and 5 draw combined with overbends is more than enough palatte to work with. I can bend the 5 draw and 7 blow down a semitone or two on any solid harp lik Todd describes.
It isn't hard for me to set up overdraws at all - sustainable and bendable through hole 10...so in my case, commiting to someting nonrichter might be not so beneficial.
The more I play the valves the better I get at it, but it doesn't get me anything a nonvalved can. I like it and it is way valid, but not necessary for me.
I compared to a low F MB, F GM, and D MB. The first two are full-on cutoms for customers and the D is my main D. No embossing on that. Just standard profiling and gapping. The 10 od was as easy as anything else. I am weird, though in tha I can do that set up in my sleep and often prefer harps with minimal to no embossing.
As it stands, I think for the average player learning to ob 4, 5, 6 and valving the rest is a great and affordable way to start.
@Shoulders - Sorry for not responding... this is the first time I've been back to MBH since my response. Looks like your question was answered though. Many of Joe Spiers harps are good for this technique, though I'm not sure why. Even some homemade custom harps will work well for this technique. I'm sure it has to do partly with gapping, and there seems to be a fine line for allowing the harp to produce a strong single-reed bend while still allowing for overblow/overdraw bendability. But I am no harp tech.
@jim - Thanks Jim. You make some cool tunings, but I guess I was referring to a richter tuned harp set up for overblows and overdraws, but still allowing strong single-reed bends.
@timeistight - I will try and demonstrate it soon in a YouTube video. Some harps work amazingly well, while others do not. The 5 blow is the hardest for me.
@harpdude61 - Yes, it is possible, but depends on the set-up of the harp I suppose. Howard does it in the video above.
Last Edited by on Jan 02, 2012 8:19 AM
I am tuning a LF# right now - just embossed and profiled...nothing crazy.
I can bend the 5 from B to Bb. I can bend the 5 blow from Bb down about 30 cents. I can't get it any lower before it pops up and goes to C.
I can draw bend the 7 from F to E, but the E is like 30 cents sharp - so good for inflection, but not as a note. It then overdraws to G# and can be bent from 30 cents flat to about 10 sharp.
The 6 blow can be blow bent about 20 cents sharp before popping to the overblow.
It is probably easier on a lower harp like this, but this is really only a Level 1 harmonica. I just boxed up a couple Level 3 harps for KiwiRick (should have thought about this first!), and have about a half dozen Level 1 and 2 harps to work on today and get boxed up and will check these bends out as I finish final tuning.
I will take note on the next Level 3 I work on...probably tonight or tomorrow. Point being the inflected notes are there without vavles. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
I have been following this thread for a while now and thought I might respond to a few comments.
@HarpNinja thank you for the kind words about my "Gazell Method" half valved diatonic. Since I don't overblow and never have spent anytime on the technique I can not comment on whether or not it differs from bending with valves. I CAN tell you that when I get a unvalved OOTB harmonica from Seydel and absentmindedly go to do a 6 hole valved bend I do an overblow. Now granted it is not a great overblow but the note is there none the less. It should be noted however if I was to leave the gapping the way it is and put a valve on it I would have a difficult time doing a valved bend. I also have once again revisited my technique for bending with valves and have to say that it seems to me that my embouchure for valved, unvalved, blow and draw bends is exactly the same. Now, it is possible that I ended up with a different technique to do any bend after starting out with valves and learning to do what is necessary to play them. I honestly think however that what has really happened is that I just became a better bender of notes due to the fact that single reed bends require it.
@Todd Parrot....new one on me Todd....I never heard of a single reed bend on a unvalved harmonica. Not saying it does not exist, but I never heard of it.
I have made a few observations about people who have bought and tried the Gazell Method diatonics:
Players who understand the concept of why it works tend to have an easier time getting good at it.
Players who bend notes well: i.e. on pitch and are able to sustain the note(s) have a much easier time
Players who do not play single notes clearly and with good tone tend to struggle with this technique
Players who use the pucker technique and are good melody players pick it up right away.
@ Boris You say you don't like the feel of valves. Do you mean that plastic ones rattle and pop? If so you should try mine...there is a difference!
@harpNinja: You said: "I dunno, in messing around today, I've felt that the inflection and bending I could get on things like 7 blow and 5 draw combined with overbends is more than enough palatte to work with. I can bend the 5 draw and 7 blow down a semitone or two on any solid harp lik Todd describes."
I'm confused if you are referring to the valved harmonica you got from me the 7 draw not blow is the extra note and the 5 blow not the 5 draw is where the valved is used. Just trying to make sense of what your saying here.
Finally: I have never said that half valving is more advantageous than any other method...whether it be overblows and draws, or alt tunings or learning to play the song in another position. Half Valving is just another option that works great for me and my material. I have said before that the emotional shading and coloring of all the notes with a half valved harmonica is worth learning the technique. I am posting a clip I did last week which shows what I am talking about.
I agree PT: Players who play melodies,single notes,etc. tends to find it easier. Frank Bard bought a couple after one of you seminars in Ohio. He picked it right up and loves what it does for his style of playing. Frank has a CD out with songs like "Over the Rainbow,Georgia on my mind,Coal Miner's Daughter". To name a few. He has a great acoustic guitar backup. These songs are beautiful and the bending of the valved harmonica adds greatly to the song. Over the Rainbow has a Hawaiian riff ( same as the movie fifty first dates ) that just adds so much to the song and the valved bends adds to that. A couple more bluesy country songs would be Patzy Kline's Walkin after Midnight and Crazy ( which Frank would like to use a valved county tuned Bb on Crazy). ---------- And I Thank You !! K.C. castlehomes69@yahoo.com
Last Edited by on Jan 05, 2012 6:39 PM
It is interesting that you said that 5 blow is hardest one for you to do the single reed bend. As you see from my earlier post, I was surprised to see that it was the hardest one for me too.
Now, as I'm an engineer I started thinking why is this. There are two possible explanations for this:
1) Single reed bend isn't actually a single reed bend but the other reed is actually involved. As the difference between the 5 blow & 5 draw notes is small in Richter tuning it doesn't allow full semitone draw bend OR full semitone blow bend 2) Because of the small difference of notes in 5 hole, the draw reed starts to interfere with the 5 blow bend sooner that e.g. 6 or 4 blow bends.
This could be studied by removing the covers and making some experiences of how stopping the draw reed with your finger would interfere with this one.. (I don't have time to do it right now myself.)
Very interesting vid from PT, with superb playing. I have a half-valved promaster in C that I like to play a lot, but I think I'll order soon a HV Seydel 1847 and taste the difference.
HarpPerL: Actually none of the CD songs are played using a valved harp. At the time of recording,he didn't know about valved harps. In 2009 Frank came with me to the Buckeye Harmonica Fest where he met PT. At that time he purchased a couple valved harps and they became a natural for his style of playing. Wow you should here these songs now,amazing. Frank is my first harmonica Instructor and a great guy. I was searching for a teacher 5 years ago and found Frank in my own home town of 1,500 people. His guitar player"Jr.Smith" is Tops at finger playing.If the song calls for 3 chords, Jr. puts in 9 chords. I sat in with them at a festival this past year. ---------- And I Thank You !! K.C. castlehomes69@yahoo.com
Last Edited by on Jan 06, 2012 8:13 AM
PT I've tried your valves, they are nice, I like tone. But response is different, especially blowing after draw at the same hole, like it changes articulation. The same on chromatic. I can play with it, it's ok, but I prefer overblow setup anyway. ---------- Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
@apskarp - I'm not sure whether or not both reeds are interacting when playing what we're calling a single reed bend or not. Perhaps someone who is more knowledgeable of reed physics can chime in, but I think... and I could be wrong... that the bendability of the 5 blow has something to do with the gapping of my harps. I have a homemade custom C GM that is great for bending the 5 blow, while other customs I own don't work as well for bending the 5 blow. Again, I think the difference has to do with the gapping than the relationship between the two reeds, but I could certainly be wrong.
This is also not to say that my homemade custom is better than a real custom - that would be a joke - but, on the other hand, on my homemade custom it's harder to get the 5 overblow than on my true customs, which are phenomenal OB harps btw. So, I'm guessing there is a fine line in finding the perfect balance. Sometimes single reed blow bends on 1-6 are easier on stock harps. Again, is this due to wider gapping???
@PT - Yes, it is possible, but of course you can't get quite the same control and volume as you can with a valved harp. It's pretty darn close on some harps and notes though. For me, I don't try to use single reed bends as a way to sustain a blow bend on hole 6 for instance, but rather for expression and for putting slight bends on the blow and draw notes. I'm pretty convinced that this is what Howard is doing in the YouTube clip above with the 5 blow single reed bend. He's using a Db harp in 2nd position. His solo starts at the 2:00 mark, and the note in question is at 2:07. I brought this up in another thread awhile back, and initially thought this was maybe you playing. Seems that the general consensus was that Howard was playing a single reed bend on the 5 blow versus a valve or a 4 overblow bent upwards.
Bottom line for me is... I use whatever works. I love the sound and expression I get when I use a valved harp sometimes. It just fits better depending on the song. It's still nice to have the single reed bendability on a standard harp when you need it though. I'm for using whatever it takes to make the music sound good - alternate tunings, valves, overblows, etc.
Last Edited by on Jan 06, 2012 12:11 PM
