Ok from a beginner's view about OB. I just started OB, or should I say, put them into playing. 6 OB is a nice note to have in second position, you know? I "popped" mu first ob this summer but haven't thought about it much since I didn't like the sound it made. Last month or so I have been coming back to give it another try and the last two weeks I have gapped my harps and practised it for real and can now get a sound that I am satisfied with, at least once in five or so :)....
In my, much limited experience, there are two things when you learned how to get it at all. The thing to do is 1: NOT "pop" it. Just play like every other note. 2: Really get your diaphragm in there to support it.
I hope to add to that list further down the road.
All I written is from a beginner's view so maybe Todd or Christelle can give you more (and better). Or maybe they have forget how it was in the beginning :).
As for Powerbenders and valves. Dunno. Haven't gone there yet but I am really interested in that PTmethod harp. Have to try ordinary seydels first though.
Check my latest video "back at the chicken shack" if you want to hear my so-so OB:s ---------- Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
Last Edited by on Dec 21, 2011 12:12 PM
All you have to do is blow and draw to play 7-10. What kind of music are you trying to play? How proficient are you on 1-6? Can you hit all of your bends in 1-4 in pitch with good tone?
I play 7-10 at least as fluently as 1-6, but I don't necessarily play blues there. So each skill set - Tuning, OBs, and Valves, has pros and cons based on your goals.
My answer is totally different based on what type of music you are trying to play up there. If you are trying to play blues in 2nd position, Richter tuning isn't the best. If you are trying to play rock music in 2nd, it works better.
I think 2nd position Richter for blues and trying to use the whole harp is pretty inefficient in general, but that is probably besides the point.
***From a practicality standpoint I want the info...I am not being snarky. I pretty much learned to play harp backwards - high end, middle, then low end. I was OB'ing withing the first year of playing, so those notes were just always there (not that I use them a ton).
For me, Richter in multiple positions is the path of least resistance, but I like to play contemporary blues and rock. Ie., chords and double stops are very important. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
Last Edited by on Dec 21, 2011 12:32 PM
I love OB'ing, but there is more way to skin a cat (is there a pun that is less gross than that?). The *problem* with overbends is it can be hard for someone to set them up right without knowing what they are doing. This is especially true with overdraws.
This is all assuming that overbending is even necessary with that style of music. Lots of people play lots of music very well with now overbending. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Mods Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
"I think 2nd position Richter for blues and trying to use the whole harp is pretty inefficient in general."
The guy below does not seem to have any problem playing a high F harp in 2nd position blues using all 10 holes...with overblows and overdraws.
As far as varying positions in Richter I could not agree more. Great for different styles. That said, however, I play 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 5th and have incorperated overbends into these positions. Slow blues in 1st position using 4,5,6 overblow is da bomb!
Learning to play usable overbends is not easy. Lots of technique and learning the precise gapping for you is a must.
Powerbender is great but the chords and double stops are different..and you still must overbend to play one chromatically. I don't own one but I have heard some great blues played with the Powerbender. I have no idea what happen when you try to play a Powerbender in 1st,3rd,4th, 5th, or 12th position.
Do you mean that you want to blow bend on holes 7-10? I mean... the only note you get from overbending in second pos is the flat five on seven overdraw and flat five one octave up on 10 OD. Or am I missing something.
(Well, duh, 11 other positions obviously...)
@HarpNinja - You could say: "There's more than one way to skin a sausage." That would undoubtedly be more gross.
EDIT: @ HarpNinja Oh, sorry you said LESS gross. It's the red wine reading and posting at my computer at the moment ---------- Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
Last Edited by on Dec 21, 2011 1:46 PM
2nd position melodic minor (not the pentatonic scale) on a C, is a G minor scale (the one you can find in the song "Story Of The Blues" for example or MANY classical piece
G, A, Bb, C, D, Eb, F#, G (2 overbends here) plus the blow bends on the high
Then during the key change you'll play V the degree of that key (D major) for that song, you may have to play the 3 C# to play (the leading note of that scale) so another overbend to play on the 7th hole and of course the Major 3rd (F#) on hole 2 (bend 1 step), 5 (overblow), and 8 (blow bend)
One of the HUGE benefit of playing second position in that case, is that you can use the 1st octave to get the juicy notes that everyone love, PLUS the really melodic 2nd octave (ok you ll have to bend a little the overbends) to play like a saxophone
Does it make sense? ---------- _________________________________________
Daughter of Hannibal Lecter, also known as "Christelle Berthon"
Last Edited by on Dec 21, 2011 2:08 PM
Cristal, It sure does. I was really cutting a lot away by reducing everything to blues scale (cutting away all other modes as well as positions). That didn't show in my post but it was apparent in my head writing it.
I am ALL for overbending and have to tell you now that I've got your attention that your YT lesson about breathing made my OB:s ten times better. (From 1-10 on a scale to a hundred)
I'm currently working on a arrangement on a song (wow, that sounded pretentious coming from me) that changes between c major and minor (in first position) and haven't decided if i'm to overblow in minor or swap to a minor harp. (I'll probably do a harp swap though, I need some chords)
Sorry for my inaccurate, earlier post. (and pardon my obsessive overuse of parentheses) -------------- Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
Last Edited by on Dec 21, 2011 2:13 PM
"I am ALL for overbending and have to tell you now that I've got your attention that your YT lesson about breathing made my OB:s ten times better. (From 1-10 on a scale to a hundred) "
SO HAPPY you're saying that ! It's all about strategy and logic : what is the cause and the consequences ? and the breathing is the cause, the consequences are the rest...If the cause has a problem, the consequence will too
Having said that and to go back to the subject the Powerbender is super nice to play (as a fellow Suzuki endorsee Brendan has made one for me) and yes I love it, but to be more general, the Richter tuning is RICH enough to play about everything on it... _________________________________________
Daughter of Hannibal Lecter, also known as "Christelle Berthon"
Last Edited by on Dec 21, 2011 2:26 PM
I'm not that good and I want it to be easy. Plus my harps are stock and I can't afford customs....don't have the skill or tools to work on harps. Wouldn't it be easier to learn Powerbender ? I would like to hear from other top players that have tried Powerbender. Thanks Cristal.
Last Edited by on Dec 21, 2011 5:52 PM
To answer the original question... It's not necessarily an either-or!
Certainly the PowerBender gives you the equivalent Richter overbends on holes 4, 5, 6, 7 as simple draw bends, which is a LOT easier and (I think) more expressive, as you can easily add vibrato, bend down and up to them etc. Plus you don't need an expensive customised harp with delicate reed setup to get those cool jazzy notes, the draw bends work on any quality PowerBender-tuned harp.
However, unlike on a Richter harp you can overblow EVERY hole on an unvalved PowerBender, including the whole upper octave. That gives you the few missing notes plus a lot of enharmonics if you want to use them, and extended range (10 overblow gives you C# on a C harp).
It's simpler, as blow bends and overdraws are eliminated. Draw bends alone will allow you to play lots of jazzy stuff in many positions and the few missing notes are not important ones in the main popular positions. But they are available as overblows if you need them.
I'd like to post my two YouTube Powerbender videos to illustrate this, but I'm currently in Shanghai behind the great Firewall of China and YT is not available! However they have their own version called YuoKu, and some video of my recent gig in Guangzhou is up there.
Here's a loop version of "Sweet Bulgarity": http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzM0NDI5MDI0.html
And on the PowerBender, here is my "Chopped-Up Onion Blues" song: http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzM0NTg5MjIw.html
The PowerBender is getting a good response here in Asia where the 10 hole harp is still in its early stages of popularity and the Richter tuning is not so entrenched. I plan to have it available in a decent quality low-cost harp from a new manufacturer in several keys next year.
Last Edited by on Dec 21, 2011 7:43 PM
There is a tuning I like better than Powerbender, also a Brendan tuning, I think he calls it Power Chromatic. Blow is F6, Draw is G6, on a C harmonica. F A C D F A C D F A 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 G B D E G B D E G B Only one OB is necessary for chromatic play, every hole has a draw bend. Only drawback? No tonic chord. Powerbender didn't do anything for me . . .
Last Edited by on Dec 21, 2011 10:03 PM
@ Gnarley: The PowerBender is mix between PowerChromatic and Richter.
It's a harp for diatonic players who like the bottom end chords of Richter tuning, and is optimised to play 2nd Position with all draw bends throughout the whole range. It gives a player the common middle octave Richter overblows as draw bends. It's also easy to play lots of other positions. As with Richter, the range is 3 octaves in 10 holes and every octave is slightly different.
PowerBender uses the PowerChromatic layout in its middle octave holes 4-7 (or 5-8 depending which note you take as the home note).
PowerChromatic is the same in every octave. The advantage is that you have identical phrasing in every octave, and easier chromaticism in every octave. But you lose the fat low chords and big upper octave bends of the PowerBender. Also, to get three octaves you need a 12 hole harp.
I use diatonic harps in both tunings: 10 hole for PowerBender and my 12 hole Stretch Harps in PowerChromatic. I also have a few 13 hole PowerBenders with an extra low octave.
All my general purpose chromatics are in PowerChromatic tuning (half-valved, as are all my harps). That gives you a great way to get full chromaticism using draw bends alone, as you have all the draw bends slide out and slide in, with lots of enharmonics.
PowerChromatic is great for intricate melodies with lots of blue notes (such as jazz and ragtime tunes). But if I want a more earthy flavour for blues and country I prefer the PowerBender.
I'm for powerchromatic too. Great tuning. The only tuning, where actually no necessary to worry a lot about "unplayable notes" (except Ab, but it's much easier with only one note per octave skipped). ---------- Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
Thanks for the replies. It just seems to me that it would be easier to learn powerbender. Since I don't use 7-10 anyway, unless playing 1st position. As I understand it 1-6 powerbender is the same as normal diatonic tuning, so I would have nothing to loose. I like the idea of using draw bends on 7-10, seems much better than using blow bends. Hey...to each his own...thanks again.
I've been reading cognitive neurosciences lately. The new research findings show that if you learn something difficult there will be more new neurons forming than usually. Also more of them will live over 8 weeks which means that they will become part of the long-term networks in the brain. In practice it means that your brains are physically changing more.
This doesn't happen if you learn some easy things. If the learning involves both physical and mental learning the neurogenesis is bigger than just with mental things.
All this made me think how beneficial the harmonica playing can be for your brains. Especially if you learn not just new songs but also new positions and perhaps even new tunings. With regular instruments you just learn new tunes with the same layout of notes. With harp you might learn to play the tunes in different positions, which means more work for your brains and the mental/physical co-operation. If you add new tunings on top of that it's like the best workout you can have!
New musical melodies, new ways of doing the same musical melodies, new layouts for the brains to remember and add associations... No surprise that they call Howard the "man with two brains". Of course it means that he can play piano and harp at the same time, but I wonder how much of that has been developing because he has been learning to play 12 different harmonicas in 12 different positions...
This thread rubs my nose in a crucial fact in my harp playing--after close to 4 years of fairly serious playing on harp, I still can't overblow worth a damn.
That's OK for some music--I can jam blues on the low end all night--but that gets to all sounding the same to me.
Nobody ever said "I want to be a great piano player--but I don't want to use all of the black keys." When I set out to play the guitar, I never said "I think I'll just ignore all the notes on the second fret third and fifth strings."
Well--I'm making a resolution right here and now--to stop ignoring the notes I can't play on the harp--I don't quite know for sure how I'll do it yet, with a PB or RS or learn to OB well or a PowerChromatic--but I'm going to work on it in the coming year. . .
Let's be honest about the black keys on a piano. C# is right next to C. When I press C# on a piano, I hear the note - I don't have to buy a special custom piano that can properly play C#. Nor do I have to play the C and D keys lightly because I adjusted my piano to be able to hit C# and if I hit them too hard, they no longer sound.
If you want my opinion in relation to the black keys metaphor, Powerbender allows you to play those "black keys" on a out-of-the-box harp and with a lot of expression and proper intonation.
Sure you can get a proper Richter harp and practice to hit all overbends, but if we were talking about two kinds of pianos, which one would be more useful?
Full disclosure: I have started taking private lessons with an experienced, but traditional harp player. For the next little while, I have shelved my Powerbenders and am embracing the Richter harp and all of its overbends as my teacher brings me through his curriculum. After several months of pretty much only playing Powerbender tuned harps, it took a week to get back into Richter tuning, but after that week, I found I had lost nothing; actually, my overdraws improved dramatically as well as my musicality on the high end. My goal is to be proficient in both RT and PB tunings and probably will also embrace other alternate tunings as well as half-valving. But not all at once.
LOL! Good point, @arzajac! I think I'm going to dust off my PowerBender book and the harp I made. I didn't really give it enough time yet.
I tried a half-valved PT harp too (one that I made)--again, I haven't practiced with it a lot, and I think I need to mess with the gaps on it--but I find that a very difficult way to go. On the PB I was playing some nice upper end riffs right away--the half-valved would take a lot more work, at least for me.
It would be great fun to learn all positions and all tunings and play the one thing that fits the song--but I'm old and I also play guitar and lap steel and banjo and I want to learn some ukulele--I don't have enough time left for everything--I gotta make it count.
If you were getting on so well with the PB harps, why would you go back to standard Richter? Don't mean to be intrusive or snide--just curious--is there some advantage to the Richter that the PB doesn't cover?
I've been trying for decent OB's for a long time and have about decided that maybe some people (like me) just can't learn to control them--kind of like some people can't curl their tounges, and some people can't wiggle their ears. . . ----------
Arzajac, Actually your argument suggests a chromatic harp. Believe me, your intonation will be leagues better than bending on the powerbender and you won't have to deal with that pesky bending. After all, when a pianist wants to hit C#, he just hits it, he doesn't need to do some crazy technique. Unless pushing a button is too crazy a technique. Perhaps you are really a polyphonia type of guy. ;)
Oldwailer, Before you give up on overblows, are you a pucker player? Can you jam a first position high note blues ala Jimmy Reed? If not, I recommend getting 10 Jimmy Reed high note solos down note for note. After that, retry overblows on a properly gapped harp (meaning an overblow player has tried it and said it is in good shape). My guess is you need embouchure strengthening and Jimmy Reed solos are the way, imo.
@Michael Rubin--I'm about 50-50 on TB and Pucker--but I mostly prefer the TB for the slaps. The only first position stuff I do is almost all TB middle octave--no high solos.
I'll go try some Jimmy Reed stuff--I like the music a lot, just never do it. I am able to blowbend on the upper end fairly accurately.
