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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Microphone volume control
Microphone volume control
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atty1chgo
163 posts
Nov 23, 2011
11:03 AM
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I was at an open blues jam last night, and I was playing through the P.A., having replaced the vocal mic that was there already with my Electrovoice 635A mic. Low impedence mic notwithstanding, the drum player slammed his sticks loudly and said I was playing too loudly. I wasn't even driving it too hard. I mean he was really pissed.
It would have been nice to have a volume control, but I have run a mic through a P.A. before and never, ever had this sort of problem. (And I do know where to get a volume control, thanks) so just cupped it way farther away from the harp. Is this a common occurrence? I guess the monitor was in front of the drum set a bit, but it was in front of me as well and it wasn't tremendously loud. The bass player said it was loud on his ears too. When they hooked the other mic up for the next guy, it was soft as can be. I thought he overreacted a bit. I would have been better off bringing my own amp (which I can do) and putting it in front of the drummer. Comments?
BTW, no feedback. The mics that were there were standard Shure vocal mics.
Last Edited by on Nov 23, 2011 11:07 AM
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Joe_L
1637 posts
Nov 23, 2011
11:09 AM
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It has been my experience that when people play through a vocal mic and don't drop the volume on that channel, they are going to be too loud, unless they vary their attack and how loud they play to compensate.
When cupping a vocal mic, you've got to play softly and be very careful that you don't blow the audience out of the house. If your tone is at all shrill, it just gets magnified when play a vocal mic.
If they felt you were too loud, then you probably were.
Where was the jam?
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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hvyj
1971 posts
Nov 23, 2011
11:32 AM
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There's a few considerations. One is that a PA board has adjustments for gain (sometimes la labelled pad) AND volume. Another thing is that when you are through the board, you are omnipresent. You are in the mains and the monitors, which means that if you are a little too loud, you will tend to sound a lot too loud.
The latter relates to why it is harder to maintain BALANCE when you are playing through the PA. Until a player has substantial live performance experience, most players tend to play louder than necessary. This is only natural because in an electric environment, a player's natural inclination is to play loud enough to hear himself well. But, as a practical matter, that is often louder than what is in balance with the overall sound of the band. (Who was the well known harp player who said that if you can hear yourself when you are comping, you're playing too loud?) You've got to be a whole lot more careful if you are though the PA and a VC can make that easier to do. But it's easier said than done.
Another consideration is the reality that harmonica is an instrument that can very easily become a pain in the ass to listen to if played either too much or too loudly. Us harp players in general may not be as sensitive to that as we should be. This goes along with the balance thing.
Nothing wrong with playing through the PA in jam situations, and I think it's easier to control volume with breath technique using an XLR mic into a PA than if you are going into an amp. And i think it's often easier to get good sound at a jam going into a PA instead of setting up an amp. But you've got to be very conscious of maintaining balance.
Btw, if the mic is just too hot, one way to back off is to point the grill/element of the mic below the rear of the harp instead of at the rear of the harp. Not ideal cupping technique but it does work as a quick fix if you can't get to the board to turn down.
Last Edited by on Nov 23, 2011 11:48 AM
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dougharps
123 posts
Nov 23, 2011
12:47 PM
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It is my experience that if you cup a vocal mic that was adjusted for vocals, you will almost always be too loud. Your EV635 may have also have been a hotter mic, or have had a different EQ, than the vocal mic you replaced. The monitor levels may have been set for vocals to be sung back from the mic to be heard by the band, and not for cupped harmonica.
When I have sat in using a vocal mic already in place I have often played with it on the stand, acoustic style. You have to learn how to move closer and farther from the mic to get a good level, and to play slightly off axis.
If I hold the mic by hand, I may have to alter the angle of harp to mic away from the axis of the cardioid mic, so my volume is less, and not make a tight cup. I have also sometimes used a clean handkerchief as a filter to cut high frequencies and volume.
My preferred choices are to either swap mics for a mic with volume control such as the Fireball V, or play acoustic style. But if they hand you a mic, you have to make do and watch that you are not too loud. If I have a friend in the audience I may ask them to let me know if volume is OK out front relative to the vocals and instruments.
If I am going to play a gig through the PA only, and plan to sing, too, I will use a volume control with my vocal mic and set it up to be wide open volume for vocals, and cut volume when I hold the mic for harp. I also cut the high frequencies some, too, but not so much as to make vocals muddy.
I don't have an EV635, but do use an EV630 sometimes, and they can sound harsh and bright, unless you adjust the EQ and cut highs to make the mic sound better in the PA.
I have often thought that there should be workshops offered at HCH or SPAH in vocal mic harmonica technique, band signals, PA, etc. Stagecraft is a whole additional course of study. I have picked up a lot over the years, though I don't claim to be an expert.
Harp played too loud in the PA can shrill and painful, and we should avoid making anyone's ears bleed.
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Doug S.
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atty1chgo
164 posts
Nov 23, 2011
12:52 PM
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It was at Harlem Avenue Lounge, Joe. Funny thing is, I was blowing through my Electrovoice 638 (which is a much hotter mic than a 635A) at Artis's Lounge on Monday night and it was just fine. That's why I was taken aback a bit. I mean the guy was practically yelling at me. There is another jam there tonight (day before T-Day) so I will try it again muffling the tone a bit, or maybe changing to my EV 660. I tend to have a much sharper Carey Bell style tone, so maybe they had a point.
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Joe_L
1640 posts
Nov 23, 2011
6:40 PM
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Why don't you just use the house mic and ask the sound guy to turn you down in the monitors and mains? Ask them to cut the highs a bit, too.
Who's hosting the jam at the Harlem Avenue Lounge these days? Its been about 15 years since I've been there. Artis's is always fun.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
Last Edited by on Nov 23, 2011 6:44 PM
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dougharps
124 posts
Nov 23, 2011
9:09 PM
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If someone is actively running sound during the jam (which would have been a good thing, since he could have adjusted your sound levels and cut highs), then what Joe said is exactly right.
A sound man actively monitoring sound and adjusting the sound FOH and in the monitors is a good way to manage harp through a PA. If there is a sound man, I always try to talk to them before going on stage, and thank them afterward. Some are good with harp, others need for you to suggest what is needed.
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Doug S.
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atty1chgo
167 posts
Nov 24, 2011
5:36 AM
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I guess the owner runs the jams, I forgot his name. Everything is fine now. When I stepped up last night, he told me not to blow until he got to the controls, and everything was adjusted properly. At least to the EV 638. When that one I deemed to be too quiet as adjusted, I went back to the EV 635A and it was hotter than blazes. but I adjusted the distance and cupping procedure as both of you suggested, and it worked out great. Thanks for the advice. It was pretty crowded last night being the day before Thanksgiving.
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Greg Heumann
1349 posts
Nov 24, 2011
10:36 AM
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re: "It is my experience that if you cup a vocal mic that was adjusted for vocals, you will almost always be too loud."
There are two distinct situations:
a) There's a mic in a stand set for vocals - for a singer that sings 6" from the mic. A harp player picks it up and cups it. Unless he has GREAT control and ability to play very softly, it WILL be too loud.
b) There's a mic in a stand set for vocals, set up for a singer who "eats the mic" - i.e. touches the mic to his or her lower lip as they sing. This singer then plays an acoustic solo with the mic still in the stand, and gets his closed hand cup around the harp, with the mic beyond his hands. In this case, the mic won't be loud enough during the harp solo.
Case b happens to be my personal case but I've seen plenty of examples of both. This was a big factor in my developing the Ultimate 58 - which is my vocal/acoustic mic of choice and the one I use at every gig. Having the volume control at the mic means - in case a) you turn it down 1/4" turn for the harp solo, and in case b) you turn it up.
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/Greg
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Joe_L
1642 posts
Nov 24, 2011
1:38 PM
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Excellent points, Greg. You sounded most excellent last night.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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dougharps
125 posts
Nov 24, 2011
5:39 PM
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Hi Greg!
In case b) (""closed hand cup around the harp, with the mic beyond his hands") you aren't really "cupping the mic" as I said in my post, since it is beyond your hands. And anyway, I did say "almost always" ;)
However, as I also said, I prefer the solution of a mic with volume control, or just play acoustically.
Recently I have been using the PA more, and I have wished I had bought the Ultimate 58 Low Z, instead of the the low output High Z Ultimate 57 with Bulletizer.
I have other mics to use with my amps (ceramic biscuit with one of your volume controls and a 520D). I have one of your Low Z XLR volume controls that I use with other vocal mics at times, but they are long when you add the control. The Fireball V does well with harp in the PA, but I find it only acceptable for occasional vocals and not for singing all night. Right now my budget doesn't support getting another Ultimate.
@atty1chgo
In the last post you mentioned that your EV638 was too quiet and you switched mics to use the EV635A. Bands often get louder after they play a while, and with a volume control you can have the sound guy set up your sound with your volume not fully open, allowing you to bring it up when the band gets louder. If you have a regular XLR output from the mic, you could use one of Greg's volume controls to do this. I have a Shure 585 Unisphere SB with a short pigtail cord from the mic connector(Amphenol MC2)to a regular XLR, and I have used a volume control there sometimes, though it is a little awkward having the control dangle.
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Doug S.
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gritsncatfish
28 posts
Nov 24, 2011
7:33 PM
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>It was at Harlem Avenue Lounge, Joe. Funny thing is, I was blowing through my Electrovoice 638 (which is a much hotter mic than a 635A) at Artis's Lounge on Monday night and it was just fine. That's why I was taken aback a bit. I mean the guy was practically yelling at me. There is another jam there tonight (day before T-Day) so I will try it again muffling the tone a bit, or maybe changing to my EV 660. I tend to have a much sharper Carey Bell style tone, so maybe they had a point. <
"maybe" they had a point?
Why not just accept the fact that you were too loud-not get offended-and correct the problem? you said you have a "sharp" playing style.
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atty1chgo
172 posts
Nov 29, 2011
2:28 PM
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@ grits - I did correct the problem, info posted before your comment. When I was in law school, I asked a lot of questions because that how one learns. The only ones that complained were the know-it-alls. But to the point, I didn't know I was too loud, that was the problem. I didn't know it until the drummer went spastic.
dougharps and Greg - Thanks for the advice. I plan on getting one of Greg's controls soon. Have to figure out which microphones get what first. I have both Hi-Z and Low-Z microphones: all Electrovoice - 635A, 660A, 638, and 664.
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