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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
I don't like using monitors
I don't like using monitors
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Jim Rumbaugh
604 posts
Nov 20, 2011
8:02 PM
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Bigger is not always better.
Today we played on a large stage with a professional soundman and system. My wife said the group sounded good. In fact she said, "I think it was the nice equipment"
BUT, there was SO much piano come through the monitor it was hard to hear myself play. It was not pleasant to perform. I had requested less at the beginning of the set, yet it still was not right. But for a quick 1-hour set played for a charity, I didn't want to be talking over the PA to the soundman more than once, so I just played.
In hindsight, I should have requested the monitors turned off or WAY down. Our stage volume was enough to perform as needed.
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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
Last Edited by on Nov 20, 2011 8:03 PM
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Hobostubs Ashlock
1607 posts
Nov 20, 2011
8:13 PM
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The last gig I played ,the Bandleader supplied the PA for the bar,and his best friend who was drunk,thought he would be a sound man,halfway though the 2nd set,I got the feeling i wasnt being heard,I looked over at the Bass player(my best friend) ,Who was sitting in for the band that night,But is a good player and he shrugged his shoulders and said the drunk guy on the mixer had him turned down so low you couldnt hear the bass,We sat down at the bar stools next to the gear and stoped playing,while the drummer and guitar/singer kept wailing away and never even noticed,Needless to say we dont play with them anymore we mentioned the sound level problem once and they wouldnt fix it ,
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Hobostubs
Last Edited by on Nov 20, 2011 8:20 PM
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jbone
689 posts
Nov 20, 2011
8:23 PM
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some sound guys do very well at balancing everything. other times it's just a crap shoot. i have not played with soundmen involved too many times but have had similar experiences as you, Jim. our little fender p.a. for the duo is really as much as i care for, 75 watts a side, 4 inputs, no monitors, and for that small a p.a. who needs monitors? and we've had a full band on stage and it's held up and put out plenty in a medium room.
Hobo, that's a tough situation and one i've been in, for about the same length of time. when it's like that it means people are not working together and don't want to, so the answer is exit the situation and take the lesson along.
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http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
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Shredder
320 posts
Nov 21, 2011
12:56 AM
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I totaly under stand what your saying Jim. I play with 2 diffrent bands and they each use Bose L1 model 2 set ups. If you aren't familar the L1 is the monitor and main all in one placed behind the band. What you hear is what the patrons hear. I have sat in with some bands that have the triditonal PA with mains and momitors and it's really a struggle for me to go backwards. Same old issues can't hear my self, what do I sound like out front, to loud stage volume and feedback issues. It's fun to play with other bands but I hate the struggling to hear my self just like you said. The Bose takes some getting used to but after you adjust? I'll never go back.
Mike
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Jim Rumbaugh
605 posts
Nov 21, 2011
5:50 AM
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For about 5+ years, my dance band has used older Bose speakers on stands. We place them behind us, tilted in toward the band. Similar to jbone. This is how I prefer to play.
When the club plays, they insist on monitors, but the monitor is the same as the main, so I can work with that. I use to insist one of the old column PA speakers sit behind us, but I've given up fighting the guys that set it up.
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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
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Rockerduck
28 posts
Nov 21, 2011
5:52 AM
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Side stage monitors work the best. I learned 40 yrs ago and I still do it today, Easy to control feedback and like the Bose L1, you hear what the audience hears. None of those wedges out front. If you are too loud or can't be heard everyone knows it. Usually louder on stage that out front too.
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HarpNinja
1917 posts
Nov 21, 2011
5:56 AM
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Jim,
I don't think the monitors are the issue here, but rather the sound man. While often the last thing we think about, the FOH sound is a huge part of the entertainment equation.
Many clubs with large systems have crappy gear and are under-powered. You are right on when you say if you can hear everything via stage volume, then they aren't necessary.
I wouldn't give up on monitors in the future, though. One luxury I've always had is being the lead singer of my bands. This means that if there is only one monitor mix, I always end up getting to decide what is in it. ;)
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
VHT Special 6 Mods
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The Iceman
170 posts
Nov 21, 2011
6:07 AM
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problem may be the "separate mix for each monitor for each musician" concept. doesn't work as well as same mix out front as in the monitors, allowing musicians (who actually play and listen and think at the same time!) self regulate the mix. BOSE systems and concepts work perfectly for this scenario.
I never understood how a band could play to an audience once removed by listening to monitors (can I have a little more keyboards in mine?/take all the guitar out of mine!) and rely on some sound man to put it all together again for the front speakers.
why not just play like a band should, listening to everything and adjusting as you go so it sounds good on stage?
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The Iceman
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HarpNinja
1919 posts
Nov 21, 2011
6:33 AM
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@The Iceman,
What about singer?
Monitoring seems to work for every major live artist on the planet...
Seriously, this may have been how things were done 40-50 years ago when PA's sucked and you had to fill an arena with your amps, but in a room that holds even 300 people, it becomes difficult to hear the other instruments on stage.
I can think of any number of situations where using monitors would be a bright thing to do. For example, a large playing area in a mid-sized room...playing outdoors...using amps that need to be miked...having acoustic instruments (horns, harmonica, guitar, etc)...
The dumbest thing bands do - I am talking bands that don't have dedicated sound techs traveling with them - is ignore the FOH sound. There are any number of factors impacting what the audience hears during a performance and assuming that having a good mix on stage equals a good sound out front isn't reasonable.
I probably represent the average live performer on this forum in that the majority of my gigs are with full bands in modest to large rooms. Most those groups run their own sound. When the room is large enough to necessitate a sound man, the stage is usually very large or outside.
Unless your band performs in a circle with all the amps pointing at the band, it is a struggle to hear all the instruments in an even and pleasing mix on stage unless people have loud stage volume (the amps are probably all aimed at the ankles of the band and towards the audience, which makes no sense). Not only that, but the perspective from which you are listening is totally different than the audience's.
Jim's situation seemed to be one where the stage and volume were appropriate enough that he could hear everything and not need the monitor. I understand that that isn't too uncommon. Whether or not the sound guy was any good is a different story, but ultimately, the mix was different FOH then on stage and it had to be.
If you are really listening to the band when you play, the chances of being on a stage that required a full PA and allowing for the whole band to hear a solid mix without sound reinforcement is near zero. Maybe, just maybe, if you are the front person and upfront and center stage you might be ok (but probably need vocal reinforcement).
This whole thing goes back to, what I think, is the most important question one can ask. Why am I playing? If you are on a stage performing for an audience and not making them a priority, then you lose a lot of rights, IMO.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
VHT Special 6 Mods
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2011 6:35 AM
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The Iceman
171 posts
Nov 21, 2011
6:58 AM
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harpninja
done properly w/BOSE concept, singer has no problem hearing themself in the context of the complete band.
I've used BOSE for over 10 years in situations from small clubs to medium size indoor and outdoor venues - if sound man is present, I'll give him 1 line out from the final mix to push through front of house speakers. Sometimes pisses off sound guy, but end result is superior sound. Steve Miller band uses this concept, and they do play some pretty big outdoor venues.
It's really a new way to approach live sound.
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The Iceman
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HarpNinja
1920 posts
Nov 21, 2011
7:40 AM
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I've used the Bose one time. IMO, I think it is overpriced for what you can get with a more traditional set-up. I also think it is underpowered for what you can get with a traditional set-up as well.
For monitoring, it might work ok, IMO, it is no different then having a backline of amps. For a vocalist, it might be a bit different as the sound comes from behind you, but at some point, doesn't the feedback threshold become a problem?
I think it is a perfect set-up for a smaller group so as to use it as a FOH and monitoring rig, but again, for the price point, it isn't much bang for the buck (when purchased new).
With the Bose you still run into not hearing what the audience hears as they hear the sound coming at them and not from behind them. It goes back to the amp pointed at the ankles thing. Most musicians put little time into pondering stage and sound position while obsessing over their gear.
I guess my point is you get more control by using monitors separate from a FOH system in most cases. That isn't the case if all the sound comes from behind the performers whether it be by amps for PA.
The more en vogue solution are in ear monitors paired with ampless or near ampless rigs.
Most bands who play out frequently on large stages have figured out that FOH sound should be the first priority and what they hear second. In this way, they have their sonic needs met - and what they hear is very consitent from one night to the next, not to say it is the same as using a large amp - and the FOH sound can be controlled without worrying about stage volume.
While not perfect, when just about every major act I can think of is using in-ears and small to nearly zero amps, all while having tons of money to throw at sound reinforcement, the pros must out-weigh the cons. For club players, they are obviously very expensive.
It all comes down to professional behavior on stage and understanding that you have responsibilites to your audience and have to make certain compromises.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
VHT Special 6 Mods
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waltertore
1680 posts
Nov 21, 2011
8:37 AM
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Here are some observations from 40 years of playing clubs, festivals, halls, concert arenas.......
Most people, including big names, play way too loud. Amatuers tend to own high end gear and love to crank it and make believe they are stars. A club that is under 100 people needs no monitors or miking. If you are doing this it is over kill and usually will end up a muddled, loud, mess. In bigger venues a PA is provided and a sound man. Will he be any good? Odds are he won't be any good. I did 200+ gigs a year for 20 years and maybe 10% of them had good sound. A pro has to accept most of his gigs will be mared by substandard sound. Most soundmen put a one size fits all on you. Plus if you are an opening act, he is basically winging it as you play your set. Festivals the same thing. I use to open tours for a band called THE CALL. They traveled with their own soundman and they spent a good hour before a gig getting things right. Still many venues had hoky setups and there were ever going problems with trying to re rig it right.
So, unless you are a big enough name to carry your own soundsytem, roadies, and soundmen, play quiet. KIS (keep it simple). The more stuff you add, the more likely it will end up a mess. That is the simple truth to making good music. There are attenuators out there that will give an amp big tone at low volumes. Bring the audience to you. Anybody can play loud, but few can play quiet and make it rock big. Walter
When I played the smaller clubs I had an old fender 4 channel mixer and 2 small speakers. We use 1 mic for my vocals and harp. That was it. No monitors needed. Plus that would be more crap to haul and space was always an issue in the vehicles. That set up played clubs all over the country in venues of 100 or less people for 30 years and lots of bands in austin would rent it from me when they played a smaller venue like the hole in the wall and such that had no PA's I made $20 a rental. Save your ears - play quiet.
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Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2011 9:01 AM
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LSC
109 posts
Nov 21, 2011
10:56 AM
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First of all I would 2nd walter's comments regarding volume. I would also 2nd that Jim's problems more likely stemmed from the soundman than the mere fact that monitors were used. And BTW, if what the monitor mix is giving you is hindering your performance do not hesitate to say something. Usually hand signals work. Point to piano, point to monitor, motion down. Repeat as necessary.
I have also used the Bose system on occasion. I didn't like it. Not enough control for one thing. The band is never going to hear what the audience hears no matter what system or mix you use. Come on, you're on stage and they are not, just for a start.
In the small to medium venues as described I find monitors are almost always primarily useful for vocals. Set up properly, they can make singing easier. You can hear yourself and don't have to work so hard, allowing you to actually sing rather than shout. The rest of the band should be pretty easy. After all, everyone is standing in front of their own damn amp so the only question should be is the out front overall volume too loud and is there any one thing too loud or too quiet. The mix on stage can be adjusted either by simply moving your position on stage a little or adjusting whatever amp. Drummers can either be praised for their control or clipped on the ear hole as needed.
And finally this. I once did a college gig where a PA was to be provided. In the event the system was something that a student had managed to lash together, including a 16 channel desk. Luckily we arrived way early for sound check but after struggling with feedback from every possible location I said, "Here, let me do it." I'm no hot engineer so I just put everything flat, tweaked just a little here and there and got the balance together so we had some sort of acceptable sound. I then marked the master faders with a line and told the kid, "Look, when we start all I want you to do is bring these two slider thingies up to that mark. When we finish, pull them back down. Don't touch anything else."
We left to get food and came back a couple of hours later. The chancellor was to make a little speech then off we go. So we're on stage and the chancellor steps to the mic. Out comes a sound like a B-17 pilot warning of bogies at 3 o'clock. We kick off anyway but there are howls and whistles swirling about like banshees from hell. I look over at the kid on the desk and he is ashen face and sweating bullets. Seems he decided to make "adjustments". We stopped in mid-tune and I jumped off the stage over to the desk. The kid looks at me and says, and I quote, "I'm sorry. I twiddled every knob I could find!"
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LSC
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12gagedan
137 posts
Nov 21, 2011
11:07 AM
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I like to take advantage of the wireless and sound-check club shows from the audience perspective. You can make a schtick-y thing out of it too, with a grand entrance from the bar.
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12gagedan's YouTube Channel
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Jim Rumbaugh
606 posts
Nov 21, 2011
11:53 AM
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I have read many good points
I don't really hate monitors, though I can live happily without them. I think I just mostly wanted to complain.
On second thought, I can live with monitors that send back the main sound, but I agree with previous posts, specialized mixes are rarley beneficial and are more frequently a source of problems. That was my problem.
@HarpNinja I have to admit my ignorance, what is "FOH sound"
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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
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The Iceman
172 posts
Nov 21, 2011
1:00 PM
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harpninja
Using the BOSE one time does not a completely tried concept make...was the BOSE used to its capacity with someone with experience?
Like any instrument, one must use the BOSE over a period of time and learn its capabilities.
It is not overpriced for what you get, if you know what you want and have the experience to get it from this system.
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The Iceman
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Shredder
321 posts
Nov 21, 2011
1:12 PM
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I forgot to mention this in my previous post. When we had the old triditonal PA for my band I had to pull a 12' cargo trailer to the gigs. With the new setup we can get all our gear in my Jeep Cherokee except the drums.Another point is I can set up 2 of the Bose rigs in 15 min. ready to play the gig. It takes me longer to set up my harp than set up the Bose. My guitar player says the same thing about his Guitar rig.And yes the Bose is over priced but the customer service and sound quality are superior, but hey I'm just a little fish in a big pond. To each his owne. :^)
Mike
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HarpNinja
1922 posts
Nov 21, 2011
1:18 PM
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FOH=Front of House
@The Iceman
Looking at the specs, this wouldn't not work well for a full band. 121dB peak and 250w for the sub is not enough juice to even cover a clean vocal mix over a full band - which for this argument, I will call any band with a drummer using sticks and hitting anything other than soft.
There are seven speakers in the unit, but it looks like the "sub" is an 8" speaker. Again, no way this throws enough power off the stage for most bands...especially one in Jim's example.
Hell, it might work for my solo show...and it looks like they've taken a huge drop in price...but you'd need at least $2,000 in these to think about doing a full band in even a medium sized club. For that much, you can get some really awesome gear that won't be running at max SPL all night.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
VHT Special 6 Mods
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The Iceman
173 posts
Nov 21, 2011
1:29 PM
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BOSE - I have 2 complete L1 systems w/4 bass speakers.
Have successfully done outdoor medium size festival w/keys, harp, kick drum, overhead drum mic, percussion mic, trumpet, sax, vocals, output from Bass Amp running through them.
People were amazed at the sound - crystal clear like a CD with no extreme drop off as you moved back away from the stage.
I've proven it works many many times in many situations. To those that say it doesn't work, this has not been my experience at all.
What it won't do is push out that totally obnoxious aggressive low end sound that washes over an audience as well as high end that leaves audience with ringing ear drums after the show.
To say "no way will it work" just by reading specs makes no sense when I have experienced it working so well that the audience actually commented on it to us after our set, as well as how much they liked our music.
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The Iceman
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Shredder
322 posts
Nov 21, 2011
2:24 PM
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I know this started out a monitor thread but.
@ Iceman we must have the same set up. I have two model 2's and 2 tonematch units along with the 4 bass bins. Same response from the audience, great sound and "All that sound comes from that pole? WOW!".
I had a singer at church when we got an L1 say "I didn't know I sounded like that. I need to go home and practice." The true tone and sound isn't mask by monitor main distorion. What you hear is what you put into it. I had to tighten up on my harp tech. cause it dosn't hide the little slurs and bad notes I could get away with using the old style PA.
Like I said," I'll never go back to the old style PA if I have any thing to do with it.Biggest venue attendance was 750 at an indoor church event. We used it to play outdoors with a rock band for 100 people. I walked off 75 yards and could still hear every thing loud and clear. 100% satisfied with the BOSE.
Mike
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2011 2:25 PM
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The Iceman
174 posts
Nov 21, 2011
2:41 PM
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yo shredder. The few who know will never go back to old style sound reinforcement.
The model 2's disperse the sound a little better, as the internal 2" speakers are aimed alternately left and right a little bit. Am jealous of your tonematch units. They are excellent. I use a Mackey mixer.
Methinks harpninja is mistaken. BOSE does not drop prices. However, they did come up with a cheaper "stick" set up for solo acts. Perhaps this is the one he was referring to in his latest post.
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The Iceman
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HarpNinja
1923 posts
Nov 21, 2011
3:03 PM
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When Googling the L1, I saw a $900 version, which must not be what you are using.
Until your later post, I had no evidence that multiple units and extra subs were being used...which, IMO, defeats some of the purpose.
A search of Musiciansfriend.com shows much more expensive units, with a $4,597.96 bundle which appears to match the specs of your unit (it is the Model 1...just one Model II is three grand).
If this is accurate, and even if I were inclined to believe that said rig could support a full electric band, it is still overpriced. That's fine that it works great, but you can get a lot more bang for the buck.
You can put any PA behind the band, so that is a moot point, IMO. Most 10" and 12" active tops have a 75 to 90 degree dispersion, which would provide a similar spread to the Bose unit.
I went through dozens of posts on this topic last year when shopping for a PA, and the consensus was if you bought enough of them and the matching subs, they could work for a fullband...but there was equal or better gear available for much less - assuming buying new. The trend for the subs was that they were underpowerd...but for tops, they could work ok in certain applications.
There are a ton of fantastic active cabinets that can be had for much less money that would sound at least as good.
I think any of these would sound better than 90% of the PAs out there. Even Shredder acknowledged that the L1 sounded better than their old PA. I am willing to bet they didn't have $5,000 in their old system.
Most of us would be comparing the L1 to a $500 Craigslist ghetto-system of discontinued passive Mackie's, etc.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
VHT Special 6 Mods
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The Iceman
176 posts
Nov 21, 2011
3:42 PM
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harpninja
your mind is set. all I know is that you haven't experienced the BOSE set up when done right.
If it were me, I would reserve judgement until having had this experience.
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The Iceman
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walterharp
765 posts
Nov 21, 2011
3:54 PM
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it takes a good sound guy. i just hate it when we get into a gig that holds 100 people and the sound guys starts miking the drums.. you just know it is going to be way too loud and the sound guy has control issues.
that said we have a great sound guy and use 3 monitors. It is especially nice because our guitar player likes to hear himself really loud. If he turns his amp up loud enough in a smaller setting it gets really loud, with a monitor he can be blasted in the face by his sound without his amp totally cranked.
the trick is matching the size of the gig to a gear.. get into a big gig/ festival situation, with a pretty good sized stage, and it is not possible to hear people on the other side of the stage without monitors.
it is really useful to have earplugs for the times when it gets loud, you really can pick out more stuff then, particularly your own harmonica.
it does seem a bit presumptuous to assume what you hear on the stage is better than what is out front and that a good soundman will not make the band sound better to the audience
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Shredder
323 posts
Nov 22, 2011
10:15 AM
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@ HarpNinja I don't know all the specs. on our old set up. The Guitar and Bass player went to Guitar center and got it. The cost was $7500. JBL mains & subs. Yamaha monitors, 12 channel Yamaha mixer, Crown amps.
Not looking for a fight or my set up is better than yours. If your happy with your rig and I'm happy with mine hey, that's what makes the world go round.
The Bose L1 compact is for single acts in small club settings. I have $3400 bucks in one of my Bose L1 Model 2 setups with the Tone match included and 2 bass units "B1's" $6800 total for the 2 units.
The last club "Beer joint" venue we played we were ask to turn the volume down. We havn't played a rock gig in an arena yet but we will have to get more sound reinforcment when that happens. And I will say again the Bose is over priced in my opinion but your paying for the Bose name,reputation and customer service which I can say from experiance is world class.
Mike
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Greg Heumann
1347 posts
Nov 22, 2011
6:32 PM
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From my perspective as a harp player, sax player and lead singer.... You don't know how it sounds FOH, and FOH doesn't know how it sounds on stage. A good sound guy will ensure that the musicians can hear what they want/need to hear and the audience will too. It isn't about liking monitors. Hearing yourself on stage, particularly for singers and sax players who don't have their own amplification on stage - is essential. Hearing it from the front of house speakers doesn't work. Monitors are a necessary evil. But it is entirely up to the sound person to make them work FOR YOU. That's his job.
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/Greg
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2011 8:43 PM
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Jim Rumbaugh
608 posts
Nov 22, 2011
7:25 PM
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I agree with Greg, you need to be able to hear yourself on stage.
Now I wanna rant.
"monitors are a necessary evil" is true for some loud bands or in some clubs that have their sound system already set up. But we have read above about bands using setups where the main speakers can be set behind the musicians. It's not for everyone. It's probably not for a band where every instrument goes through the PA. I don't play with those types of bands. I'm happiest when the mains are behind me.
There are some people that feel that monitors are needed because that's what they see other bands using. There are also people that can't listen to the other people playing in the band and can't play as part of a group. I say these are the people that like monitors.
I regret an extra 15 minutes of setting up cables, and another 15 minutes of sound check to do a 45 minute performance.
Making music does not have to be complicated. Some people make it harder than it needs to be. (like the guy with the too big amp and lots of pedals) If you need it, OK, use it, do it, whatever. But be open to simpler ideas.
Rant over, I will return to normal. [and I'll use a damn monitor when I'm told to] ;^)
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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2011 7:27 PM
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LSC
110 posts
Nov 22, 2011
8:54 PM
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I'll throw out one more option. I have an AER Combo 60 that I use primarily as a mini-PA for acoustic solo gigs. Once I was forced by circumstance to use it as the vocal PA for a full on band gig. It was plenty loud enough and sounded great. That got me to thinking and eventually I acquired the AER AG8-2 extension cab, basically the same thing as the Combo 60 but with a minimal pre-amp and a cabinet that can be set upright or angled for a monitor. I have a little Tapco 4 channel mixer-cost $75. I can walk into a gig carrying the entire PA in two hands! Things you never hear said, "Please, could you hand me that PA."
I put the two amps on either side of the stage, they can mount on a mic stand, then I take two vocal mics into the mixer, one line out to the Combo 60, which has 4 digital effects so I add a touch of delay, one line out of the Combo 60 to the AG8.
The band plays blues and soul on the rockier side of things with the guitar player using a RI Bassman LTD, the bass players a 300 watt Eden head with 15" cab, and I use a '63 RI Vibroverb for guitar and a SJ Super Cruncher for harp.
Last week we played Bike Night at a local club, big room. The guitar player really likes this gig because he can play loud. I had the two AERs set at 10 o'clock on the masters with the EQs flat. After the first set the guitar player said, "What are those things? That's insane. Where do you get them?" He also mentioned he thought they sounded better than the Mackie 808 with 2 15" cabs we used the week before. I was also told by the club owner that the backline sounded fine but the PA was too loud!!. The master on the mixer was at 9 o'clock so I just knocked that back a tad. The channel volumes were at about 10 o'clock. I had so much head room it was silly. I have no doubt this system is can handle any gig short of a large venue where backline would have to be mic'd. In that event there would undoubtedly be PA provided.
Granted the two AER amps retail at $1100 each but I got mine for $650 each off of Ebay. I've sold off my bigger PA and now I'm in the market for one more AG8 for a monitor, the only thing I'm lacking, though I can get along fine without it. I might also pick up a Mackie FX8 if I can find one cheap, just to have a couple of more vocal channels.The entire PA, mixer, and three combo cabs would weigh in at almost exactly 50lbs. That's total weight for the entire PA!
It's not about power. It's about efficiency and quality of sound.
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LSC
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2011 8:58 PM
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