Question: Are there any traditional minor key blues tunes that have a MAJOR IV chord?
I most frequently use 5th position to play minor key blues since it gives me the 6b which is, of course, the 3b of the IV chord and the traditional minor key blues tunes I play all seem to have a minor IV chord.
I'll use third position for minor key tunes that have a major IV chord since third position gives me a major 6th. I realize most harp players use third position for minor blues. But after thinking about it, I can't come up with ANY minor key traditional blues tunes that have a major 6th/major IV chord.
WHO's BEEN TALKING has a minor IV chord, THE THRILL IS GONE has a minor IV chord, the Otis Rush stuff has a minor IV chord. Not sure about all of Albert King's stuff, but i think CADILLAC ASSEMBLY LINE and I'LL PLAY THE BLUES FOR YOU has a minor IV chord.
Are there ANY traditional minor key blues tunes that have a major IV chord?
I can't think of any either, but I think I have an explaination for you. The 3rd of the iv chord is the sixth degree of the scale. In a minor scale, this is lowered, and the result is a minor 3rd between the 4th and 6th degree of the scale. It would sound strange to have a major IV chord, unless you're using a dorian scale (natural minor with a raised 6th degree). When playing minor blues in 3rd position, I rely on the 6OB for the minor 3rd of the 4 chord. If you don't overblow, though, I guess that wouldn't be much help. ----------
I agree with the observation that an example of a minor blues with a major IV is hard to come up with. The point of playing in a minor key is to sound minor, after all.
That said, if I go over the piano and sound out the chords of a minor blues with a major IV it doesn't sound wrong or bad. But it doesn't deliver a full minor flavor either.
Maybe a more interesting question is whether the V chord should be major or minor.
Of course there's no right answer. You can have a "pure"minor blues where al three chords are minor (some of Junior Wells' stuff from the 1960s does this, as does Help Me).
let's say you're playing over this progression in 3rd position. The bVI7 chord has a root note that is either Draw 3 bent down one semitone, or 6 Overblow. You can outline the chord like this where "b" is one semitone of bend):
3Db 4D 5D 6Db
The V7 can be: 3Dbb 4Db 5B 6B When the V chord is major (or, usually, a dominant 7th chord), it often goes to a bVI7, then back to the V7, instead of going to the IV, as in G7 - Ab7-G7, back to C minor.
Last Edited by on Nov 13, 2011 1:00 PM
hvyj - I get your point, though I think I'll Play the Blues uses both a Minor and Major IV chord? Probably uses a scale with a minor 6th though
I think that the advantage for 3rd position is bending the fifth, i.e. 3 draw triple bend or 6 draw bend. As you know probably better than just about anyone on this board, this note is appropriate for blues but not a conventional minor song
You get the same opportunity with a 3 draw bend in 5th, but only one note (without overblows) on the harp is a limitation
I can't think of any time where I would play the 7 draw or 3 draw in 3rd position (though often by mistake), which is one reason I never understand why people go on about Dorian mode - let alone Phrygian - in relation to 3rd position blues playing
I use 3rd position over 5th generally because I'm more used to it, and more used to hearing it in a blues context (yes a cop out, that) - and also because I find avoiding the 3d and 7d a little easier than the 5 draw (in 5th), and if I do it doesn't clash quite as badly, to my ears at least.
Last Edited by on Nov 13, 2011 3:22 PM
@Winslow: Yeah, what to do w/ the V chord in a minor key presents an entire different consideration which I, for one, haven't figured out in a comprehensive way.
@GamblersHand: Well, you know in second position you can't bend for 5b above the 4th hole, either. I use 5b quite a bit playing in minor keys. 3 draw and 7 draw in third position are important notes for Dorian mode stuff like "Cold Duck Time" or "Stormy" and Dorian material is mostly what I use third position for.
@Christel: Well yeah, with the very strong technique you've developed, minor playing in second is no problem. Personally, i don't OB and I am not as consistent bending 3D to pitch in order to hit the minor third accurately every single time. So, I only use second position for a couple of minor tunes; "Miss You' and "Long Train Running."
Follow up question: If just about all minor key blues have a minor IV chord/6b, why is third position so popular for playing minor key blues? I've never understood the rationale for choosing third position for minor key blues playing. To me, it seems awkward.
Btw, i asked David Barrett this once in an email, and suggested that fifth position provides better note choices. Dave was really cordial in his reply, but didn't really provide an answer that made any sense. He just pointed out that most minor key blues harp material was recorded in third position and that most players have their hands full learning first second and third positions. I guess Dave's philosophy is not to improve on what was done in the past and to dumb things down in order to appeal to the lowest common denominator. From a commercial point of view I guess his answer makes sense. But from a MUSICAL perspective, what is the appeal of third position for playing minor key blues? I don't understand and that never have. Please enlighten me,
Last Edited by on Nov 13, 2011 2:38 PM
The good thing about 3rd position for minor blues is how well the blues pentatonic scale sits. If you stick to the pentatonic, the 6th degree is omitted, which therefore eliminates the problem of the 7 draw. Another thing I like about 3rd position is the flexibility of 4,5,6, draw. It also has a minor pentachord 4d, 5b, 5d, 6b, 6d. I feel like 3rd position is a very lyrical position to play in. The lower octave can be a little difficult with the draw bends, nut especially in the middleand upper registers, it's a beautiful position. ----------
Last Edited by on Nov 13, 2011 2:40 PM
@ GamblersHand - I often use the 7d as a passing tone or grace note. It's nice because it implies the dorian mode, but if you lean on it too much or stay on it too long, it can definitely sound out of place. It definitely has more of a jazzy flavor, though. ----------
@sammyharp: i understand what you are saying, but the minor pentatonic scale sits even better THROUGH TWO REGISTERS in 5th position. Only one bend needed. To play minor pentatonic in third through two registers, two bends are required
The breath pattern for minor pentatonic in FIFTH is the same as the major pentatonic in SECOND which doesn't feel particularly choppy to me. Not that THIRD is tough--but it is a little more challenging to hit the two full step bends in third a fast tempo. IMHO it's easier to fly through both registers pretty effortlessly in fifth at fast tempo.
Last Edited by on Nov 13, 2011 4:24 PM
I really see where hvyj is coming from on this one. I have payed attention to his advice and put a lot of time into 5th position....and a fair amount of time in 4th. I totally agree that both offer better minor scale options than 3rd position does for a lot of songs.
I love the splits available in 5th position. My band plays Cold Cold Feeling in "A". I use a high "F" in 5th as an organ type backing....You can make some cool backing stuff using the following TB splits in 5th. 2/5 blow and 5/8 blow as root notes. 1/4 draw, 2/5 draw, 3/6 blow, 3/6 draw, 4/7 draw, 6/9 blow, 6/9 draw, and 7/10 draw....the blows work well on the I or IV chord while the draw seem to work best on the IV and V chords. hvyj has helped a lot of folks with scales, modes, positions, etc etc.... Much appreciated I'm sure.
Maybe the 3 note minor draw chords in 3rd position appeal to players. ...similar to what you here with a chromatic as well...IMHO if you can play minor blues in third on a diatonic you should have no trouble picking up 3rd on a chromatic.
4th and 3rd do offer nice splits as well....but 5th offers more splits that fit nicely with the chord changes....IMHO
2) That I chord is ALL DRAW, so it's easy to play that chord and all those notes bend down in 4-5-6 (though not in 8-9-10).
You can argue back and forth about the relative merits of playing minor penatonic in third or fifth, and it's sure to be illuminating. But having the I chord available as three neighboring notes on the same breath is the reason it's so popular.
Look at the three most popular positions, second, first, and third. What do they all have in common? A home chord that's all on the same breath in neighboring holes.
@gamblershand "I can't think of any time where I would play the 7 draw or 3 draw in 3rd position (though often by mistake), which is one reason I never understand why people go on about Dorian mode - let alone Phrygian - in relation to 3rd position blues playing"
Most third position is not played in minor keys. It's played over standard blues which is sort of major but has minor laid on top of it. Flattening the third in the scale sounds bluesy. Flattening the sixth sounds weird - too dark and kind of jazzy for non-jazz blues. So third allows you to have the major 6 and either minor third (built in) or major third (with bends in the first and third octave, and with an OB in the middle octave).
@Winslow: Oh, yeah. Playing third over non-minor blues can be very useful. And I certainly understand what you are saying about available chords, But, stylistically, I don't play chords that much and I think I can get better choices for note movement using 5th to play natural minor blues,
Then in a tune like "Chitlins Con Carne" that has both Dorian and natural minor, if I use fifth, I can get 6b at B4 AND major 6 at D4*. I think fifth is a much more flexible and melodic position for minor blues than third.
But, yeah, in fifth (and fourth) you don't have chords. BUT in fifth if you play D2 D3 D4 you get the notes of a The I minor dom. 7th chord without the root note which can be played over the I and sounds pretty good to my ear.
Last Edited by on Nov 14, 2011 12:35 AM
